As someone writing code on Java since v1.0 and making tech strategy decisions on the C-level, I consider myself sane and experienced enough to say that Java is something that will do the job well and can be the primary choice for startups and new projects. Kotlin as a platform is not mature enough to deserve the same qualification.
> Kotlin as a platform is not mature enough to deserve the same qualification.
With
(1) a lot of Java backend projects migrating to Kotlin (let's be negative and assume 20%); (2) all of Android running Kotlin, which is around 80% of the world's mobile phones; (3) the world's best IDE authors building features and improving Kotlin; (4) the language being almost 13 years old at this point; and (5) Kotlin being 100% compatible with Java in both directions,
I wonder what additional maturity would you be looking for. Can you point to a specific problem?
I mean, of course, Java has been here since forever and we've made careers out of programming for JVM. I'm wondering if you are referring to a specific maturity issue, or just want to highlight that Java was here for longer... if it's the latter, I don't think it can be a valid argument against Kotlin or in favor of Java.
The job of software engineers is to translate a business domain into software.
Different languages are better or worse at modeling different domains of problems.
I have seen the same problem solved in different languages take 2-3x the amount of work and have a large difference in ongoing maintenance costs.
Java's reliance on traditional OO means that only a small subset of business domains naturally map to the language's constructs. People get good at modeling problems in Java, but that doesn't mean Java is the right language to model all problems in.
A problem that is best represented as stateless functions processing data is a miserable fit for Java, a problem that is best represented as thousands of threads going off to do independent work and then unifying results, is a bad fit for Java.
Sure Java can be used, and I'm sure as an experienced Java developer you instantly thought of how to model those problems in Java, but experienced users of languages that map naturally to those problem domains don't have to think of how to translate to their chosen programming language, because the language is a natural fit for that particular problem domain.
As a trivial example, I once saw Java used to parse a raw binary stream that had a lot of unsigned ints in it. Miserable usage of Java, tons of wasted space. In a language like C/C++, or even C#, it was possible to just directly map a structure onto the raw byte stream, but for Java they had to read each unsigned 32bit INT into a 64bit INT to ensure no overflow.
Horrible mismatch, lots of unnecessary allocations, ugly code, wrong tool for the job!
> Java's reliance on traditional OO means that only a small subset of business domains naturally map to the language's constructs.
In my career I worked on a really wide range of business domains and have not even noticed the problems you are talking about.
The problem of mapping certain types like unsigned int that you mentioned is rather rare integration scenario. There’s not that many domains where numbers with the most significant bit are important, but MAX+1 size numbers are not.
> In my career I worked on a really wide range of business domains and have not even noticed the problems you are talking about.
How many other programming paradigms have you explored in depth and built solutions with?
Back when I did OO in Java and C# I didn't think twice about it, converting things to an OO paradigm was second nature, but once I stepped outside my comfort zone and learned of other modeling techniques, I realized that I had been jumping through extra hoops to get to where I wanted.
> I have seen the same problem solved in different languages take 2-3x the amount of work and have a large difference in ongoing maintenance costs
I am sure none of this experiences were basis for an objective experience, there are too many variables. But surely, there are (very few) problems that doesn’t fit Java too well, though it is not an OOP-only language, it is a multi-paradigm one, with many FP concepts seeping into it.
E.g. for some ultra low-lat audio processing I wouldn’t choose it, your binary stream processing may be another good example, though it depends on a bunch of factors and in many cases java is more than fine for that as well.
I'm sure you have done great work in Java, as have many of us, and for many of those years, Java really was the best tool for many jobs. But that was then, now is now.
I'm not saying Java doesn't work, even for greenfield projects today. It works fine. But me and many others also think it's not enough for something to merely work, especially not when there are other much better and more modern tools. (which Java is demonstrably playing catch-up with)
You and every other C or higher level exec need to get a grip, get with the times and realize that continuing to insist on Java is only going to make (or, by now, keep, more like) your organization stale and attract more and more mediocre engineers for every year that passes. I know because I've worked with the kind of engineers who are still doing Java + Spring like it's still the 90s, and they're not the ones you want on your projects. The best talent don't even want to consider working with Java if they can help it.
> especially not when there are other much better and more modern tools. (which Java is demonstrably playing catch-up with)
Which modern tools do you have in mind here?
Java does indeed playing catch up with new features. That's inevitable for a language came out 30 years ago. OTOTH many other languages are still behind Java in terms of the runtime environment and the ecosystem. You should pick what works for you, not to go with the trend.
> The best talent don't even want to consider working with Java if they can help it.
I think you seriously overestimate how talent those devs are if language is the deciding factor of what they choose to work on.
We're talking about Kotlin here (there are many contexts where neither Kotlin nor Java is the correct tool, but for pretty much any use case where Java is an option, Kotlin is going to be a better one)
> not to go with the trend
I'm so sick of this argument, it presupposes that Java is the default and anything else by definition is just a trend. Kotlin is not a trend, Kotlin is not a fad. Stop begging the question.
> I think you seriously overestimate how talent those devs are if language is the deciding factor of what they choose to work on.
Ok, and I think you seriously overestimate the willingness of people who have given Kotlin a serious try and seen first hand how much it offers over Java to go back to working for a Java-heavy shop if they can help it.
To build a good product you don’t need a kid with Hollywood star complex, for whom the choice of programming language or tools matters that much.
If Java repels such self-proclaimed “best talent”, good, because the team will be healthier without them. There’s enough engineers willing to learn and write a good code on Java to solve a business or an user problem, and they are absolutely not mediocre. There’s even no such thing as a scale on which you could put an engineer to measure some “greatness”. Every person is unique and has talents that may be useful in different types of projects.
> To build a good product you don’t need a kid with Hollywood star complex
Agree 100%.
> for whom the choice of programming language or tools matters that much
Programming languages do matter. Serious, mature professionals critically evaluate and compare tools and pick the best one for the job. Kotlin is a) not some fad b) objectively better than Java for pretty much every imaginable use case. Kotlin avoids entire categories of Java defects https://proandroiddev.com/kotlin-avoids-entire-categories-of...
Me and others who advocate for more modern tools are not self proclaimed wannabe rockstar devs who are only interested in the latest fad. Ultraconservative diehards who refuse to learn anything new since the 90s are the ones who need a reality check, not us.
As a mature professional who stopped counting learned programming languages and frameworks long ago (I’m familiar with Kotlin too), I can tell you that Java is a modern tool by all measures. It may lack some features of other languages and platforms, but it is not features what defines relevance for modern applications. Your advocacy is important, we of course need progress and testing new concepts. Yet what ultimately matters is business value and user experience. Java is pretty good in delivering it and many professionals choose it for that reason, leaving new stuff to pet projects at home. It is not diehard conservatism that lets us make this choice, but a mere pragmatism. For me it is not obvious that Kotlin is better. There are risks associated with less mature platform that already costed one of my teams a couple of wasted sprints. Productivity and quality impact isn’t really noticeable (the biggest factor in those two measures is always communication, not tools).
> it is not features what defines relevance for modern applications
what? zero-effort null safety out of the box alone is immeasurably valuable
> leaving new stuff to pet projects at home... risks associated with less mature platform
I'm so sick of this argument, it presupposes that Java is the default and anything else by definition is just new, a trend, a fad. Kotlin is none of those things and you know it. Stop begging the question.
That feeling is mutual. I very much prefer boring Java or .NET developers who are all supposedly stuck in the 90s to hipsters chasing after the latest JS fad of the week.
Me too! But you're building a strawman. Kotlin isn't a JS fad. It's been around for many years, is the default language for Android platform and the de facto standard IDE for Java, backed and used by Google, JetBrains and many many others. But sure, everything that isn't what you've been doing since the 90s is a fad.
I was mainly arguing against golang. As for Kotlin, given the incredible work that has been done in Java recently, the argument is that there isn't much reason to switch over anymore, due the introduction of more moving parts into the project (another dependency, compiler, room for issues, etc.) and the fact that Java ended up with the superior approach (better/fully fledged pattern matching, virtual threads, programmable string templates, etc.).
