In contrast, I now live in NYC and while there are no distinct "human poo" neighborhoods as there are in SF, the entire city is covered with a layer of grime and garbage from Manhattan all the way out to the furthest stops in Brooklyn and Queens. This was simply not the case where I lived in SF, on top of 17th street.

The same applies to the weather. Anyone who thinks SF has great weather has never spent much time west of Twin Peaks. It is foggy and cold most of the time.

It's worth noting here that it was 80 degrees in San Francisco today. In November.

"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."

(While usually attributed to Mark Twain, the actual source of these words of wisdom is unknown - there is no evidence that Mark Twain ever said this.) from: http://www.nps.gov/alcatraz/

> Anyone who thinks SF has great weather has never spent much time west of Twin Peaks. It is foggy and cold most of the time.

I think sf has great weather BECAUSE I confine myself to east of twin peaks. I don't understand how people complain about sunny and 65-75 9/10 days a year.

Pros:

- If you like seasons, you get them.

- Excellent beer. Many bars. Great nitelife.

- Clean. No poop on the streets, even in the worse parts of the city.

- Great public transportation (except Milwaukee).

- Cheap rent (2BR for $1500 along the river with a view of the skyline)

- Many excellent CS departments in-state and in the states surrounding. (UW-Madison, UIUC, UMN)

Cons:

- Tech scene is slowly simmering. Madison's is growing like a weed, but elsewhere it's quite slow.

- Not as much outdoorsey stuff to do as in the Pacific Northwest, but there's still enough to do (skiing, fishing, hiking, biking, etc. -- just not on 14kfoot mountains)

The main con for a hacker is that the tech scene is grim. The jobs are very boring and the salaries in general are pretty bad. In addition, the jobs that do exist are usually really out in the burbs. Every so often I go through the motions of creating a cost of living spreadsheet and even with the cheaper cost of housing, when I factor in car ownership and utilities I still seem to come out behind with the lower salaries. On the other hand, the bar seems to be pretty low for getting a home loan. I have a college friend who is an unemployed music instructor who "owns" a home in Powderhorn, and the person who cuts my hair in Brooklyn actually lives in Northeast and makes enough to money cutting hair 5 days a month in Brooklyn to cover her mortgage.

I don't agree that MPLS has great nightlife but there is a much better local music scene than any other place I've ever lived. The reason is that you can afford to rent a house with a basement in which to practice your drum kit on a drummer's salary. I also would not say there is great public transportation. The bike friendliness is awesome, though.

It's a little odd to put the whole north midwest into one group, each of those towns are hundreds of miles apart from each other. The culture can be quite different. I never felt MPLS had much in common with Chicago, for example.

Nitelife, music scene, etc. are all criteria I pulled from Joe's article. I'm not particularly into the "bar scene", but I do know that entertainment (theater, music, etc.) is top notch.

I agree that bunching all of these cities together is kind of dodgy, but I get the feeling that most everyone that writes posts like Joe's are from the edges of the country and I personally would love to see the middle of the country represented more here. So I grouped the entire middle together. :)

In Portland you can go out for a wonderful $50+ per plate meal in t-shirt, jeans, and a multi-inch-long beard. In Minneapolis the only other bearded guy in the bar I was at was the drunk that wandered in off the street and promptly got thrown out, and I think his beard was better groomed than mine. Definitely the cleanest city I've ever been in.

However, when I asked for local beer, I was given a bottle some fairly unexciting porter from New York for $8. A 22oz bottle of Deschutes Abyss costs $11 in Portland...I didn't want to become a beer snob; it's just hard not to.

Minneapolis is (or at least seems) far more diverse than Portland. Except for certain areas in North and far SE, Portland is excruciatingly white.

There may not be any 14k foot mountains in the Midwest, but pretty much the entire northeast corner of Minnesota is covered in forests, lakes, and parks. Not the Pacific Northwest but still impressive. Minneapolis also recently stole Bicycling Magazine's #1 Bike City award from Portland. I think that was enough to scare our mayor into raiding the sewer fund to improve the bike infrastructure.

I saw a hipster in Minneapolis riding his fixie in just a hoodie (no gloves) in sub-20 degree weather with snow on the ground... It may be cold there, but the natives don't seem to mind.

Not sure where you went, because even most chains have Summit in the twin cities. And you can definitely find places that at least come close to stacking up against the Colorado/Oregon scenes.

> I saw a hipster in Minneapolis riding his fixie in just a hoodie (no gloves) in sub-20 degree weather with snow on the ground... It may be cold there, but the natives don't seem to mind.

Also, they plow the bike paths with bobcats, often faster than the roads. Studded tires are rarely needed, although watch out for hardened ice shelves flinging you into the middle of the lane :)

Minneapolis is really really nice... from May to September =).

If you want a tech scene to happen, you need to WORK to make it happen. Or just complain about it and move to a city where someone else has already done all the work.

yellowblkpk i'm assuming you live in the twin cities too, do we have good meetups tailored to an HN like community here? i haven't found anything good yet.

I organize PyMNtos

However, I did make visit before the winter. Not sure how I'd feel about that aspect.

Other commenters have mentioned the brutally cold winters (seriously spit goes clink), but they fail to mention that the summers suck too. Humid and over a hundred. Don't bother fighting, the mosquitos will win. Land of 10,000 standing pools of water! I'd rather spend a summer in Phoenix.

And please, don't discount the beer. I'd cry if I lived in a city where I couldn't get a good beer.

And the abundance of male techy immigrants means that women who are attracted to geeky men are the most in demand and most likely to be already taken.

If you're single (and male) and you'd like to be paired up, make it happen before or after your time in SF.

A couple of his cons are way out of left field though:

The weather: Its never been 10 below in the 4 years I've been here, and only been below zero or single digits at night. Only about one or two days in each of the winter months is it cold, and there's as many winter days with highs in the 60s as there are days below freezing. It's very rarely cold more than a couple days in a row, unlike the midwest winters I'm used to where it won't get above 40 for a month. It'll snow 20" here, and be completely melted 3 days later. But I guess compared to SF and Seattle, he hasn't experienced enough really cold weather to know that what Boulder has isn't cold.

Real estate prices/rent is about the same as downtown of any major city not in California. Denver is about 30 minutes up the road, and condos are about the same price. As for getting to Denver, its easy enough, there's an express bus.

I actually agree with a lot that he has to say about Boulder, it's why I live in Denver. It's really a great secret. I can live in a house that's 1000 ft2 (with a yard and everything) within 2 miles of Downtown (11 minute bus ride) for sub-$300k. Try doing that in Seattle or SF:)

Pros

- Decent public transportation

- Huge college talent pool to draw from

- Startups in the area tend to come out of area colleges

- Recruiting from those colleges is probably the primary draw for the big tech company offices in the area

- Slightly cheaper rent than SF, with much cheaper options accessible by public transportation

- Home prices are way cheaper than the SF Bay Area

- Great nightlife, successful sports teams if you're into that

- There's a 200 year old frigate in the harbor that used to do battle with pirates and there are lots of cool old buildings all around

- The area is becoming more startup friendly. There are resources like TechStars and the Cambridge Innovation Center that weren't around a decade ago.

Cons

- Annoying Puritan laws that aren't enforced evenly

- Cold, long winters

- Hot summers, though this past summer wasn't especially hot

- Not much of a startup culture compared to other cities. Other than the students, people are pretty complacent in general in Boston/New England

- Most people in the area are from there originally or went to school there, more-so than other cities

- Small bubble of startups working on tools for academics

- Parking and driving are kind of a nightmare. Lanes disappear, Massachusetts drivers are super-aggressive, lanes are really skinny, etc..

Neutral

- Not as diverse as other cities, especially outside of the colleges

- Startups in the area are more focused on making money right away

Public transit in the state is great IF you work/live near a train or subway line. Driving/parking to stations can be time consuming and expensive. Plenty of bus routes inside 128/I-95, though they have to deal with road traffic.

I lived in Boston for a bit without a car near the subway. Super-easy (and cheap!) to get around. It's definitely a very walkable city so long as you have something warm to wear in the winter. Having a car in Boston is expensive mostly due to parking. There is street parking, but good luck getting a spot! :)

I was recently in Atlanta, and got the distinct impression that my diving was no longer "normal".

I didn't realize the music industry was that old.

I've only lived in SF and Portland, not Seattle or Boulder. I think it'd be fine to have a family in Portland - like he said, the prices aren't so high, and it's got some nice neighborhoods where kids would be ok. My guess is that Boulder is small enough that that holds true as well. SF on the other hand requires some serious cash if you want to have a larger home, and I'm a bit less sure about schools there.

Also, when I was in SF, it seemed very much a place for 20-somethings. "Normal people" who don't pull in major cash tend to drift elsewhere if they want to be able to afford a more or less normal house, which skews the demographics further. In the end, I didn't like that very much... here in Padova, one rubs shoulders with both wealthy, middle class and the less well off, young and old, which feels about right to me. Same in Portland, depending on where you go. SF was very much a bubble in many ways.

Luckily, it passed!

Go to this link and go all the way to the bottom. Its item L. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/03/...

Edit Additionally, it looks like Ron Conway was a big contributor to this. http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/San_Francisco_Sit-Lie_...

Did you miss the word "hiding"? It doesn't seem to be much of a way to "solve it".

The city government has also aggressively harassed the homeless in parts of downtown where they congregate, displacing them further. They then had the gall to proclaim proudly that homelessness had gone down, since their yearly headcount (of the popular spots, of course) decreased.

All of this has served to cut the homeless off from the services that help them, and displaced them further afield.

Some of my fav cities in the world are those I least expected to be awesome.

[1] not a scientific study but exhibit A: Los Angeles

Basically it goes like this: the locals here (people who grew up/went to school here) are incredibly resentful of "transplants" who came from elsewhere, mostly to work in the tech industries here. We're blamed for anything from turning Seattle from a sleepy laid-back town into a monstrosity of big-city lights (it... isn't), to raising housing prices, to making everything suck more, to driving out the local music scene, etc etc (some of which have merit). In any case, Seattle's social scene is almost comically obviously divided into locals vs. transplants. I've been here for over a year, have made many friends, and only one of which is a local Seattleite.

Transplants are forced to keep to themselves, and I'll just add a slight note that the vast majority of the transplant population is male (software, surprise!)

People who visit Seattle often mistake our distant politeness and geniality as friendliness. It isn't. People will give you directions to the bus stop, we'll tell you the best places to get coffee, and we probably won't yell at you for cutting us off on the highway (much), but this is really just politeness, not friendliness. Culturally speaking people form social circles early on in life (high school or latest, college) and do not appear at all interested in expanding them. This is in contrast to some other cities I've lived in where everyone seems constantly eager to meet new people.

It's also one of the more racially homogenous places I've seen (granted, my history is in Vancouver and Toronto, where at last count half the population was immigrant). Good Japanese food? Few and far between, pricey to boot. Good Chinese food? Does not exist. Good Indian food? Maybe one place waaaaay over on the east side, and this is despite having MS and Amazon's Indian engineer population feeding the demand. Good food is basically limited to "pretentious fusion attempt" and "Northwest seafood". Ethnic foods? Fuggetaboutit. You have greasy stuff only a notch or two above Panda Express, and that's about it. The food scene in this city sucks.

Transportation? It's one of the few cities I've lived in (and I've lived in some shitty towns in the middle of nowhere, Ontario) where living in one of the central neighborhoods (Capitol Hill, for reference) makes me feel legless. The bus system sucks, the light rail is pathetic for any use except getting to the airport, and the "streetcar" can be beaten by a granny on a bicycle. Couple this with the fact that Seattle has no centralized city planning (it's a very loose collection of neighborhoods) and getting around without a car is a gigantic pain. Hell, it took me 45 minutes this afternoon to travel 1.0 miles on the bus (one of the most frequent routes, in fact). Mass transit effectively does not exist, and even when the government occasionally has a bright idea about effective, fast mass transit to finally connect all of the neighborhoods, the class-warfare-happy upper-middles on the east side are quick to attempt to torpedo anything. Our current initiative to make light rail finally useful, and for the first time get an effective mass commute option in the city is currently being fought tooth and nail by rich homeowners and builders fearing the "undesirables" will be able to move about too easily into their gated meccas.

Yeah, the summers are gorgeous, the beer scene is delicious, the availability of the great outdoors is incredible... but overall I find this city to be incredibly insular, completely antisocial, stuffed to the brim with pretention (yuppie urban high-rise style and pretentious suburban rich style all rolled up into one, oh boy!). The only good thing about this damned place is the employment.

So, if you want to make a fair bit of money, enjoy the weather, and hermit up writing code all day (or having beers with other coders... or having coffee with other coders... or going to dinner with other coders... or hitting the club with other coders, full of coders dropping mad dollaz trying to get laid...), come right on in. I'll even buy you a beer and start a pool on how long it takes for you to run screaming out of this town. The current average is 2 years.

Note: This is a very harsh post. But, if you are married (or seriously involved), ready to settle down in a nice, peaceful suburb with good schools, Seattle's not such a bad place. There is so much nature around for you and the kiddos - I wouldn't mind growing up here at all. If you are however young, possibly single, and looking to meet interesting folk from diverse backgrounds and enjoy the urban lifestyle... consider carefully.

Seattle was a perfect city on paper. It's beautiful in the summer and there's waterfront views in every neighborhood. There's a good arts scene for a city of its size, and the cost of living is pretty reasonable. But without any way to build a core group of friends, it was really difficult to handle living there. I had to leave before I went crazy!

Some ethnic food is well-enough represented. The Vietnamese food around 12th and Jackson is as good as anywhere (came here from SV and it matches up fine), there are significant Korean communities in the Lynwood and Federal Way burbs where that food is good, Ethiopian food is pretty good in the Central District, Indian food on the eastside isn't as bad as you imply, there are some great taco buses, etc. And on Chinese food, the restauraunt I would most miss if I moved away is Sichuanese Cuisine; it's dirty, spicy, greasy, and fantastic. There's a big step down from there though.

The homgeneity is split usually on neighborhood and economic lines; the rich neighborhoods are all WASPy but get down to the southside and it's generally all minority. That's what happens when housing prices are so disparate.

The styles you talk about are present in seemingly every major city that hasn't experienced complete suburban flight. It's the other ones that annoy me; Capitol Hill is like a lookatthisfuckinghipster theme park and everywhere else there's an obsession with appearing outdoorsy. For a fun time, count the number of North Face logos you see in a crowd at any time of year.

I like this city for staying down to earth. It's not perfect, it clearly isn't for everybody, but it ain't that bad. It's desperately alternative; so showing up as another one of an already huge crowd you shouldn't expect diversity.

For example, there are many well to do Chinese folk in this town working in white-collar tech jobs, yet the sort of Chinese food you'd see in this city wouldn't even be fit for a road-side stall in Shanghai. It's strictly greasy spoon, over-Westernized stuff with zero authenticity - head up to Vancouver sometime if you want to see "real" middle class (or upper-middle) Chinese food (and it's about the same price as the greasy spoon swill here). This entire category does not exist in Seattle. Hell, I've lived in cities of a mere 100,000 folk that have had better Chinese food.

My Indian colleagues complain of the same effect for them - a lot of marginally competent stuff that isn't downright nasty, but neither is it high-quality, nor authentic.

The same applies for every other ethnicity under the sun except the Japanese - Japanese food in this city is fairly decent and well represented, though much, much pricier than any other city I've lived in. It's the only cuisine that the population around seems sophisticated enough to discern good from bad.

Capitol Hill honestly doesn't bother me so much (probably why I live there). The hipsters may be desperately preening, but it beats the arrogant yuppies in Belltown aping Lil' Jon all day and night and getting krunk with their brahs, all the while spitting on the homeless drug-addled folk that fill the streets down there. Ugh, never living there again.

[edit] Honestly speaking, the food scene's quality is a relatively minor concern compared to just the sleepiness and insular antisocial-ness of the town. It's no food mecca, but it's good enough to get by if you had some interesting people to share it with - but as it is you'll be having greasy Chinese food with a lot of other hackers, and basically no one else.

Sushi (I assume you mean sushi, since most Japanese restaurants I've been to here treat everything that isn't sushi as a distraction) is absurdly simple food (it was created to be fast food), governed mostly by fish quality. And guess what the fish is pretty good up here, big surprise.

I'm not convinced Belltown partiers actually live there. I'm about 80% sure it and Pioneer Square fill up with the Seattle version of the Bridge & Tunnel crowd; I guess they'd just be the bridge and bridge crowd but I've also heard them referred to as BARKers once or twice (Burien Auburn Renton Kent). But yeah it's a place to stay away from on party nights; the concentration of drunk morons makes it crime central. They've got some nice (not-ethnic) restaurants down there as its only saving grace.

I also disagree on the antisocialness of the town; if the only people you know are hackers that's your problem. For people who come here as a hacker and expect to be embraced for it, they should know that the locals have seen a hundred thousand programmers pass through on the MS/Amazon/Expedia/etc gravy train and it's kinda old hat. They don't think we're very interesting either; a hacker has to do something else to stand out from the 40,000 other people who are just like him/her.

They don't. The sadder part about Belltown is that without the annoying fratbros it's completely lifeless. Walk down 1st or 2nd on a weeknight to see what I mean. Compare this with, say, Granville/Robson in Vancouver, St. Catherine in Montreal, or Yonge/Queen in Toronto and the patheticness is magnified more.

It's part of why I moved up to Capitol Hill - despite the hipsters, at least people are out and about throughout the week. There's life on the streets, as opposed to Belltown and downtown where shops close at 5-6pm, and there's nary a soul to be found walking on the sidewalks (well, unless you count the coked out hobos and their dealers).

There is no energy in this city. It's as if everyone is constantly in an opium-induced haze, lazing about in the coffee shops, or at home. When I lived in Belltown I felt like a reverse Omega Man - in the daytime the streets would be full of people coming and going, but at night they'd slink back indoors as if the night is out to get them. This is part of the "antisocial" thing I complained about in an earlier post - but what can you expect when you stuff a neighborhood full of antisocial, overworked, overstressed hackers? Of course they just shut down on weeknights after work. Foot traffic in even the hottest neighborhoods is essentially zero except on Fridays and Saturday nights. The entire city is utterly lifeless throughout the week, and explodes into a flurry of sudden activity for a few hours (hilariously enough, mainly driven by people traveling in from the burbs... since when are the suburbs known for more activity than the city?), only to continue being lifeless as soon as Saturday rolls past.

Heck, the restaurant scene is the same. Take the hottest restaurants in the city in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal, and they'll be packed no matter which day you go. Here? On a Tuesday or Wednesday night you can waltz into almost any restaurant, no matter how well-regarded or hip (the ones you can't hope to get into without a reservation on the weekend), and just plop your ass down because it's practically empty. It's as if life stops on weekdays. Goes extra for Belltown - I am unsure what Belltown residents do all day, because the only people seemingly taking advantage of their copious restaurants and entertainment are people from elsewhere.

In fact, take a look at your local restaurants - and see how many specials exist on Sundays. Sundays! In any (other) major city Sundays are still prime for going out, and business is still booming as everyone gets their last bit of fun in before returning to the grind. In Seattle the city's shut down even worse than weekdays on Sundays.

> "I also disagree on the antisocialness of the town; if the only people you know are hackers that's your problem."

Are you sure you're not a local? ;) I've seen this argument a million times over, but the result is the same: the vast majority of people I've met here (and not all hackers, but most) have a huge amount of trouble meeting varied people. If this sort of effect is isolated, I'd be more willing to blame the victim - but it's so pronounced that it's made our city infamous to the rest of the US, and there's not a single transplant I've met who doesn't acknowledge the problem is real.

Hell, the only people I've seen deny it are the locals - which is understandable, because they don't feel its effects daily.

Which isn't to say meeting people - non-hackers even - is impossible in this town, there are some interesting hacks around Seattleites' antisocial behavior. The problem is that it takes a huge amount of effort - never in my life has socialization required so much conscious and continued work. In other cities it just flows - people are always up for meeting new folk, and going someplace after work to maybe make a new friend or two is second nature.

This is exacerbated by the fact that Seattleites are notorious social flakes. I host a party in Vancouver, or Toronto, and almost all of the RSVPs will show. The ones that don't will probably text me at some point. Here in Seattle, your show-rate is well below 50%, and not a word to be heard from the flakes. I've seen this in multiple contexts: I'm involved in a volunteer group that constantly struggles with getting people who sign up (and get reminder emails the week before AND the day of) to show (<50% show rate). I've also been involved in local modeling/photography groups where the show rate is well below 25% for any of our events. My own get-togethers have a show rate of maybe 60%. People here don't take socialization seriously - possibly because most people aren't terribly arsed to expand their circles. It's the infamous Seattle noncommittal waffle.

Hell, we had a photographers' social a few weeks back. 15+ RSVPs and 4 showed. This is depressingly typical for Seattle.

> "a hacker has to do something else to stand out from the 40,000 other people who are just like him/her."

Agreed. It's what you get with a monocultural town with insane domination of one industry and no representation from any other. Seattle is software, and if living with an army of other nerdy hackers is your thing, it's great. If however you desire your social circles to be filled with diverse people doing different things, this city is a poor choice overall. Better off in a city with significant representation from multiple industries.

Not only are they less interested in interacting with us because of the city's already-insular culture, but we're also pretty old-hat, and there's really not that many people from other fields to begin with - there are no other industries with a huge presence in Seattle (a case may be made with biotech).

I avoid I-405/I-90 just so my commute's transit time can have lower variance.

I'm from central Canada, and traffic in Regina and Winnipeg is a breath of fresh air compared to how it is around here (a 30 minute drive is considered exceptionally long). I'm tempted to move back to a smaller city just because of how much time I waste driving around.

Seattle pretends to be such a city, but its transit is so ludicrously broken that it's actually a PITA. The buses are so notoriously bad that UW developed a mobile app (OneBusAway) that tracks where the buses actually are, as opposed to where they're supposed to be. It is pathetically typical for a every-15-minute route to have buses delayed by 14 minutes. And don't even get me started on the light rail line, ugh. Or worse, Paul Allen's pet streetcar.

FWIW, I've had extensive experience with transit in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, London (Canada), Windsor, and Montreal. None of the above are anywhere close to craptasticness that is King County Metro or Sound Transit.

What are the ideal neighborhoods for someone coming from SF or NYC? I'm thinking with bars and restaurants and a general nightlife-ish, walkable vibe.

* Oakland is where Pitt is at. It's got tons of college kids running around everywhere, with tons of bars and places to eat.

* Shadyside is where all of those kids go after they graduate. It's where I'm sitting right now. More families, but still a bunch of stuff to do. Can be expensive (oh wait, you're coming from NYC/SF, it's dirt cheap, nevermind) if you don't look around.

* CMU is located on the border between Shadyside, Oakland, and Squirrel Hill.

* Squirrel Hill is where most CMU students live. It's a very family oriented neighborhood, lots of quiet streets, but still has a quite bustling 'main street.'

* The South Side is a bit far from those three neighborhoods, but it's got a _crazy_ nightlife. The number of bars would be illegal if they weren't grandfathered in, no joke. This is where AlphaLab is, along with a bunch of other tech companies, and lots of families, punks, etc. Reminds me of the Mission a bit, though I was only there for a day or two, so that could be a slightly poor characterization.

What you have to remember about Pittsburgh is that each neighborhood is a totally viable mini-city. They all have a 'main street' where most of the commerce is, and then housing around it. So there's at least something to do everywhere, though some places are obviously more bustling than others.

I've lived here all my life, so if you have any more specific questions, ask away.

The distinct neighborhoods and main areas are very true. I think my largest complaint about Pittsburgh has been learning where stuff is going and what's going on. Knowledge about the city seems so hidden and not well organized online. Yelp usage is lukewarm.

The other problem with all the distinct areas is how spread out they are, having a car is critical IMO to get around. Public transit (only busses basically) seem terrible.

In terms of food, there definitely is a good variety of cultures and has kept me busy sampling things. Huge amount of German culture foodwise and beerwise, having the Hoffbrau Haus around is excellent.

Girls seem pretty normal, plenty of em around, I found a girlfriend without much trouble.

Overall, the city has grown on me through the pains I've taken to learn what is fun to do.

> The other problem with all the distinct areas is how spread out they are, having a car is critical IMO to get around.

Busses are horrible, but bikes are still better than cars. I can actually beat a car from Downtown to Shadyside around rush hour...

You can seriously buy decent houses for well under $100k.

I have a friend who bought a fixer-upper for $10k in Polish hill, and another who bought an abandoned house in Larimer (actually nicer than you'd think... both the house and the neighborhood, then again, I have a high tolerance for this) for $5k.

If you're willing to, y'know, take a bus or walk a few more blocks to a neighborhood center, and you can do some work on the house, a house costs ε dollars in Pittsburgh.

I went to Carnegie Mellon for graduate school, and a number of my friends started companies in Pittsburgh afterword. It is definitely a good place to get a venture off the ground.

But... at least two of those (4+ year old) companies have since moved out here to the Bay Area for growth reasons. This is where the money, talent, and clients are based.

And it's awesome because it isn't too big (only around 7,000), and it's been listed as one of the 100 best small towns in America. It's for hackers like me that don't like lots of people and like to be outdoors a lot (and don't mind 250 inches of snow a year!).

The city has many beautiful remnants of the copper boom and it is well kept up. Homeless aren't a problem because you just can't survive the winter without a home.

Edit: Perhaps I should also add that it stays below $40 for at least half the year.

I'm from NYC originally (and finally back) and here are my thoughts after shuttling back and forth for many years.

PROS

1. It's probably the safest, relatively big (~ 1M) city that I've ever been to. And I've traveled a lot throughout US and the world. If something bad happens to you in SF, you've really, really should hone your street smarts. And no, Tenderloin is not dangerous at all as I've lived a couple of blocks from there for few years.

2. Probably the only other city (NYC is the other) where you truly have a diverse selection of food. That's pretty impressive for such a small city.

3. It's probably one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been to. I love the rolling hills and some great views especially of GG bridge and Bay Bridge. I wanted to move to SF for a long time, and it took a while for me to sink in that I was actually living in SF.

CONS

1. It's a city of wannabes. Basically everyone lives in the future (they "wanna/hoping to" have a startup, or "do art" etc). Ambitious people are good, but I feel SF definitely goes a bit far in this regard. For startups, it's due to the availability of venture capital in the city, where you don't need to be profitable from day one. In comparison, New York is about hustling and making money FROM DAY 1, not tomorrow, not in few years.

2. The bohemian/alternative/smug feel of the city. South Park had a funny episode about this. For example, people drive Prius in order to "show off" how green and environmentally friendly they are. Some of my good friends (non hipsters or art people, etc) only eat organic and only shop at Trader's Joe or Whole Foods. Apparently Safeway is not good enough. Organic is good, but try going to a restaurant with someone who is stubbornly organic about food content there, and will refuse to go. I mean come on, you're not gonna die if you eat non-organic once in a while!!

3. It's too laid back. If you love New York or East Coast in general, I think you'll find the slowed pace of the city irritating. In some ways this is a consequence of (1).

4. Nobody grows up in the city. This is a big one. I've seen some girls who are 35 and still wear clothing that a early 20s girl would wear. Same for guys. You can be 40+ or 50 and still live with roommates, etc. I've always felt that a cutoff for living with roommates is like 30 or maybe even early 30s, but 40+ is a bit too much.

5. The weather plain sucks. You have windy/sunny-turning-to-foggy weather (65-55F) pretty much all year except about 2-3 times a year when a heatwave (75F+) lasting about 3-4 days comes in and you can finally walk around with a t-shirt at night. There's really two seasons: dry and wet. I respect East Coast's weather much more because I know that in June I will be rocking a t-shirt all day and night and don't need to carry a jacket "just in case". Mark Twain said the coldest winter he'd ever been to was a summer in SF. SF's summer months are typically the coldest in the whole country.

6. Don't get me started on dating. As a guy, I still stick to my theory that it's probably one of the WORST cities to hook up I've ever been to. Most of the places are just full of guys which makes sense since West Coast has statistically more single guys than single girls. East Coast is a bit better in this regard. I always told myself if ever I move back, and that's a big if, I'll have to be married or have a serious girlfriend. And if you're a girl, don't get too excited; I've been told from female friends of mine that the guys are no prize either.

7. Pretentious Hipsters. Need I say more?

Also, if you're 35 and single of either gender, there are plenty of reasons to want to live with roommates rather than by yourself. It's much cheaper and more efficient, plus you have friendship, company, sharing of responsibility, and someone to call the ambulance if you ever have an emergency.

One of the worst reason of all to live by yourself is out of some vague idea that you're supposed to because that's what adults do. If you are single, living alone gets lonely really fast. At least, it sure as hell did when I lived on my own in my 20s. And is NYC really any different in this regard? Boston certainly isn't.

And these things are big - changing how you dress, and who you live with, and where, will change your life. But looking at these things logically, and predicting outcomes can be hard.

I don't make analytical choices about these questions any more, I've found my gut better than my brain here. And if you want "grow up" not doing so because you might be lonely, or have a hard time making ends meet seems like a poor decision to me. On the other hand if your gut says live with roomies when you're 50, I'd advocate that as well.

YOUR PROS

1. SF does feel very safe to me, although I don't know about the stats. New York feels pretty safe to me too, and so does Seattle...

2. Food in SF is awesome. Yum.

3. I actually think that SF itself is pretty ugly in most parts, though that's just my aesthetics. The surrounding area (Marin, the water, the drive down 280) is undeniably beautiful.

YOUR CONS

1. Agreed, but it comes with the PRO that people are trying to change the world, not just make a buck. The worship of money is precisely what I don't like about New York.

2. This is true. SF is crunchy.

3. Too laid back - or just laid back enough? It's not really a con. For some people, more laid back is good.

4. I'm not sure I agree that this is particularly true. People don't seem any more or less mature in SF than anywhere else I've lived. Which is to say, pretty immature. Could it be the social groups you've been part of in each city?

5. Again, I wouldn't call this a pro or a con exactly...personally, I love San Francisco's weather. I hate the scorching summers and freezing winters of the north east.

6. I know dating is supposed to be hard in SF due to gender imbalance, but in practice I don't know anyone who wants to be dating who can't find someone. That could just be my social circle, but I find my one anecdote more persuasive than one stereotype. People definitely don't dress well in SF (see #3).

7. Is this not an issue keenly felt in Brooklyn as well? I'm not sure San Francisco suffers from this particularly more than any city drawing large numbers of young people. And again, this isn't really a downside. Don't like hipsters? Don't hang out with them.

Crime -- As far as big cities go, New York & San Francisco are both abnormally safe. They regularly rank as two of the safest large cities in the country.

Food -- They both have a diverse selection of awesome food.

Beauty -- San Francisco is nestled in one of the most beautiful parts of the Bay Area. The scenery is awesome. The city is way too dirty though. I'm very liberal, but San Francisco is too liberal even for me. The city has a problem with litter which it needs to address, but the bigger problem is the homelessness. San Francisco actually has a homeless lobby whose actions ensure that homelessness remains a problem. They believe people have the right to be homeless, live on the street, and panhandle (frequently in ways that strikes fear into the heart of tourists). There are plenty of humane policies that can help reduce this problem, but the city is so liberal that policies like "Care Not Cash" are shouted down as if they were modern day Nuremberg Laws.

Hipsters/Wannabes/Bohemians/etc. -- Definitely can go too far and be annoying at times, but its also part of the culture of San Francisco that I can find charming. Like everything: in moderation. New York has its own version of this though -- the "I'm richer than you" syndrome -- the incessant need to buy ridiculously priced clothes, hand bags, accessories (women AND men), the name dropping, the pretentiousness, etc. Get over yourself.

Too laid back -- Probably. New York can be too high strung. I enjoy both in moderation.

Weather -- Wow. I'd much rather have SF's moderate weather, even if it is a little chilly at times, than NYC's hot, humid summers and cold, icy winters. But if SF gets too chilly for you, you're almost always a short drive away from a micro-climate that's beautiful.

Dating -- Well I can't complain as a gay guy. It doesn't get much better than SF. We have a few great spots in the whole country and I'm fortunate to live in one of them.

Some things I think you left out --

Blunt & Rude Honesty vs. Nice Dishonesty -- As a Bay Area native, one of the things I absolutely love about NYC is people's blunt honesty, even if it is rude at times. At least you know where you stand with people. On the West Coast, people will smile & pretend like they like you or agree with you, even if they don't. And then when you leave, they'll talk about you behind your back. This can be especially painful in the startup world when you're raising money and few will tell you the real reason why they're not convinced by your pitch.

Proximity to Destinations -- San Francisco is anywhere from minutes to just a couple hours away from beaches, beautiful mountains and camping spots, skiing, the best wine country in the U.S., legendary national parks, etc.

Suit vs. Jeans/T-Shirt/Hoodie -- I much prefer SF's dress code to NYC's.

Diversity -- Yes, both cities are very diverse. But I think San Francisco is more of a melting pot. New York seems like it still has neighborhoods that are very stratified racially/ethnically.

---

Anyways, I really love both cities for different reasons and I don't think I have a favorite. I hope someday I'll be able to move to New York and really live in it.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375

> I really yearned for hardcore technology while I was in Boulder. A lot of the technology scene was very much focused on creating consumer applications. I’m a big infrastructure, big data, big scale kind of guy and often felt out of place in that scene.

I concur, except for the part about feeling out of place. I'd rather feel out of place more often so I can get more exposure to "big data, big scale".

> I didn’t like Boulder at all due to the cold climate and small size of the city.

I've heard this before, but hearing it from Joe Stump (the sentiment, not the reasons given which I'm well aware of) feels different. Not sure how I'll feel when it sinks in.

It does not make much sense to compair technology/startup cities and totally leave out the East Coast.

That's a pretty amazing amount of nerd density.

Great place to drink or work until you head back across the river to sleep :)

I'll try by topic since most of these can be good or bad depending on your point of view.

Tech Community: I think the tech community here has potential and could become more significant in the future. There is a regular Hacker News meetup, Function Programming meetup, and SHDH. I'll let other speak about the startup scene...

Universities: SDSU and UCSD are the two major Universities down here for tech. UCSD has a lot of good programs in many engineering disciplines and produces a lot of talent. SDSU also has a respectable program in CS.

Weather: There is a single season here and it is summer. Though it comes in different shades, it is always summer to some degree. The nicest time of year is typically Fall and Winter. Summer is cool with an onshore breeze but the city is busy with tourists.

Jobs: There are a lot of jobs here in government, education, biotech, and telecom. Goverment jobs can be either as a government employee or contractor. Mostly DoD related. e.g. Navy, Army, Homeland Security, Coast Guard, etc. I see so much bad software in DoD that it seems ripe for disruption. A talented startup that has the right connections and can leverage lean technologies could put some large high dollar organizations to shame I think. Problem is all the bureaucracy it takes to develop software for the DoD.

Food and Beverage Scene: The food scene here is good I'd say. It's not SF good, but there are lot of options at a reasonable price. Beer scene here is also good. We have a lot of local breweries that have a presence at any respectable bar or restaurant down here.

Activities: SD is one of the most active cities I have seen. With the nice weather all the time there is no shortage of things to do outside. Just pick your poison here. Bike, golf, motocross, run, skateparks, stick and ball sports, surf, swim, etc.

Cost of Living: Cost of living here is relatively high. It's cheaper than SF and NY though but probably more expensive than other places mentioned. There is a good variety of housing in different neighborhoods at various price points though.

Military town: There is a notable military presence here. Between the Navy at Coronado and the Marines at Camp Pendleton your gonna cross path with marines and sailors regularly.

I have worked at two companies here (one big, one startup) for four years. Job scene isn't as dense as SF/SV. See for yourself on careers.stackoverflow.com. Do a 40-mile radius search on San Francisco. Then do one for LA. You'll notice that SF has 84 jobs and LA only 9. (For completeness, NYC has 98 jobs, Boston 40, Seattle 20, Chicago 11, Boulder 10, Portland 9, Minneapolis 1, San Diego 1).

But I'm having an itch to go hit a home run in SF/SV. Maybe you do, too. If you want to maximize your chance of success, then move to SF/Silicon Valley when you graduate. And do summer internships (or work on your own projects and network) there in the meantime.

SF traffic is NOTHING compared to LA. Traffic in LA can be truly nightmarish, especially on the West Side. An hour to go five miles is not uncommon on certain routes during the rush hour.

The entertainment industry dominates the culture. Phoniness is the norm. On the other hand, if you like peeling back the curtain and seeing the gritty reality behind the glitz and glamour there is no place like it. And because LA is crawling with highly talented out-of-work actors, there's really great theatre at very reasonable prices.

What about Caltech?

I've lived here about ten years (first five in Northern Virginia, the past five in downtown DC)

Pros:

1.) The tech community here is actually quite good. It definitely feels like it's gotten better since I've lived here. There's no shortage of smart folks working on cool things, even if they are a little more spread out geographically.

2.) While I wouldn't say it's "recession-proof", the area is certainly way less effected by the economy. You can attribute that to the preponderance of government and government-related industries here.

3.) Public transportation is mediocre. Some people think it's great, some people think it's awful. I would say it's somewhere in between. If you live downtown you can get around most places on the Metro. Northern Virginia is accessible out a little ways to Arlington, then it gets sparse.

4.) There's a lot to see downtown if friends or family come to visit. The museums are nice (and free), but I think after a couple months here you'll have had your fill.

5.) You're fairly close to a lot of other places. NYC is a four hour train ride (or a $20 bus ride), Philly is even closer. You have three airports in the immediate area, so you can get to most other places directly.

Cons:

1.) It's really expensive. I moved here from Northern California and was dumbfounded that rent was as expensive here (without the benefit of living near the beach). Like most places, you can find things for cheap if you're willing to commute (or if you live in DC, you can find things for cheap if your willing to live in one of the not-good parts of the city, of which there are many).

2.) Food isn't particularly good. Which isn't to say that there aren't good restaurants, but there's a huge drop-off after you get down from uber-expensive. Oh, and there isn't a single good pizza place in a 30-mile radius of the city.

3.) There is a giant preponderance of government-related folks. This isn't a con for everyone, but anywhere downtown is filled with lobbyists. On a related note, it's also a little weird to live somewhere that is so caught up with politics where your vote doesn't matter (we have no representation in Congress). Local politics is a cesspool, made worse by the fact that DC is cuckolded by Congress.

4.) Some may disagree, but I think the weather here is terrible. It's oppressively hot and humid in the summer (actually four or five months) and then cold and gross in the winter.

5.) If you live in DC, you are relegated to a few neighborhoods that aren't awful. It's changing over time (even just in the time I've lived here), but as to whether that's an improvement is open to debate. If you're talking Northern Virginia, you're pretty much limited to Arlington if you want a semblance of other people. As soon as you start to go west, it's all strip-malls and suburbs.

I've been trying to leave for about nine of the ten years I've lived here, but I know plenty of people who like it here. If you wind up in one of the up-and-coming neighborhoods and meet some good folks, you can enjoy yourself here. Just don't try and look for good pizza.

Also, because of all the government jobs, the housing market didn't decline as much as the rest of the country, i.e. there's still a housing bubble there. Traffic there is pretty insane too and is related to the high housing costs.

It's not all bad though, there are some good things about the area that stand out. The public schools in Maryland and Northern Virginia, especially Thomas Jefferson, are really good.

I loved the pizza at Armand's (Chicago-style) and 2 Amys (Neapolitan).

Northern Virginia dining could be hit-or-miss, but the Great American Restaurants chain was my absolute favorite. The food and the service at all of their restaurants is top-notch. Have you been to Coastal Flats/Sweetwater Tavern/etc.?

Sweetwater is actually my favorite restaurant in the area. Everything there is awesome, and it's priced very reasonably.

There's good eating in Northern Virginia, it's just very spread out. Ironically, I had much better experiences with restaurants when I lived in Northern Virginia than when I moved to DC (I just had to drive more).

However, you are never too far from a good slice of apple pie and cheddar cheese.

We, The Pizza is brand new and has some good slices. Good Stuff Eatery burgers next door are really good.

I think the best meal I've had in the area, yet, though, has been a burger at Ray's Hell Burger in Arlington.

Back on topic, I found DC area to be not particularly geared towards startups. There is a lot of IT/software business in the area, but it's overwhelmingly about government contracts. It's not like SF or Seattle where real products and companies are getting invented, built, funded, etc every day.

While DC is an interesting place to live for a short while, I can't really recommend it as a destination. The traffic is horrendous. The climate is weird (how a place can be so sticky and humid in summer, and so bone-chillingly cold in winter, I'll never know). The culture is not especially geared towards entrepreneurial types. And it's expensive.

pros:

1. public transit. Metro is pretty good, bus is fantastic within the district. A car is a liability in the district. Outside the district ... well why would you want to go there anyway?

2. Diverse neighborhoods. Gentrification has been creeping west to east across the city, but between lily white Georgetown and what remains of "Chocolate City" in Southeast are a number of incredibly diverse communities.

3. I think the food is pretty good. The K St/downtown area it's pretty lousy, but its not hard to get good eats in Georgetown, Adams Morgan, Dupont, U St, and parts of Northeast. If you can find the real thing, the half smokes are damn good.

4. Ambitious people who give a shit about interesting things. Bars are packed with 20 somethings who work for nonprofits saving the gay ostriches of Namibia. Yet almost everyone is cynical enough that they don't actually expect to change the world.

5. Exceptional parks. Decent hiking in Virginia national parks. Not far from decent beaches.

6. Surprisingly good biking despite the dumb fucks on their cell phones. The city is packed with bike messengers who are aggressive and keep the cabbies in line. Traffic is bad enough that cyclists are more worried about hitting a car than vice versa.

7. Not nearly as dangerous as it's made out to be. Crime is for tourists and dealers. Take a stroll through some of the Northeast neighborhoods and you'll get mugged. Live in those neighborhoods and you'll be fine.

cons:

1. The rest of the country sends their most ambitious lawyers to DC. Fortunately, most of them live in NoVa or never leave Capitol Hill so you probably won't have to actually interact with them.

2. Crap tech scene. Mostly gov and large contractor stuff who have piss poor standards.

3. Rent. Although, if you aren't a prick you can find some decent places in the "rougher" parts of Northeast.

4. Southeast is a little bit of Beirut circa 1980. No, you will never have to go there, but knowing that it exists is kind of a constant bummer.

5. Local politics is ridiculous. Marion Barry is a national punchline, and he's definitely not the worst of DC politics. Congressional control + the landlord lobby makes for a giant clusterfuck.

6. The weather is disgusting.

Have you tried z-pizza or Lost Dog Cafe? If not, give them a try. Lost Dog has a fabulous beer selection as well.

Red Hook, Mac & Jacks and Pyramid are all decent. Ranier Beer is some of the most foul stuff I've ever tasted. Am I missing places? I think most of the good beer in Seattle comes from Portland or elsewhere.

There are also small breweries that don't bottle (like Mac and Jacks) and you have to get them on tap at the famous beer bars like Uber, Brouwers, or Beveridge Place. There are plenty of places to look up more interesting beers in Seattle, the beers you named are just the tip of the iceberg.

Best beer scene? Really?

That's insane. If Boulder does anything right, it's the fact that it's in the center of the beer capital of North America. Avery, Great Divide, New Belgium, O'Dell, Left Hand, and a ton of smaller breweries are within 30 minutes of Boulder.

They hold the Great American Beer Festival (see #1 http://allaboutbeer.com/live-beer/culture/2008/05/the-growle...) in Denver for a reason.

It's bizarre that Joe didn't mention it. Colorado absolutely kicks ass at beer:)

*EDIT: I should also mention that we just elected a fricking brewer as as our new governor. :)

As are most of the other beers from Odell, I personally like their Cutthroat Porter.

http://www.bellsbeer.com/

Bell's is great, but so are Founders and Short's. (New Holland isn't bad either, but kind of second-tier in comparison.)

I think he does sell San Francisco a bit short in the beer department. While the city itself isn't known to produce a huge amount of widely known brews, there are a couple good breweries in the city limits. Additionally, some of the best beers in the world are all made within a half-day drive of San Francisco (Russian River, nuff said).

It's too bad they don't break it down by city.

I've lived in SF and now I live in Austin.

Austin

Pros:

-Great Food, you can't find the type of food you get in austin anywhere else. Great BBQ, the best tacos, tons of food trailers and Tex-Mex

-Great Beer.

-beautiful down to earth women (I feel like this is SF's big problem it was extremely hard to meet women I was interested in)

-night life is amazing (most people in Austin don't work they just party)

-very bike friendly...you can bike the whole city in 30 mins (15 late at night). Austin is pretty flat (unlike SF) so biking is just so enjoyable.

-There's rivers and lakes and hiking right in the city

-The cost a living really can't be beat (cheap rent, cheap food, cheap beer). I can go to a bar and get a beer for $2.

-UT is right here (I don't know anything about there CS dept, but I think they have some pretty good grad school depts)

-THE WEATHER its almost always sunny. It gets hot in the summer but everywhere has great AC so you don't feel it. It's actually great to feel the heat and then be able to relax with AC. I prefer the weather here to SF where at least in the city its almost always a little rainy and cold.

-Great Airport (flys jetblue and southwest) and great public transit (even though you don't need because biking is so great)

-If you like music theres no place better

-SXSW is awesome every year

-no state income tax!

Cons:

-Tech Scene is super small (trying to change that)

-lots of hipsters (which is good and bad)

-I wish it were a little bigger

-no big mountains or ocean

No-one here as any idea what you're talking about if you start talking consumer web startups. That includes the VCs/angels in the city. Forget about finding employees with relevant experience.

There are positively scads of game studios here, though. One of the best places in north america for that. Also: enterprise software.

It is very bike friendly except for the downtown peninsula (which isn't a big negative, actually: most of the action in Vancouver is not downtown). It has the best japanese and indian food in north america (both high- and low-end), and possibly chinese as well (I wouldn't know as I'm not a fan). Foodies praise Vancouver for its snobby restaurants being not quite as good as nyc et al. but significantly cheaper.

Anyway, forget about them both, there's nothing in those cities. Vancouver BC has lots of small (but weird) "social media" startups that probably died within 2-3 years.

Lots of "online gaming" (I mean gambling) companies.

All talents either move south of the border or to the East.

We have 3 good schools: UBC, SFU, and UVic.

Lots of people who want to enjoy life.

I don't mean to be negative but it is what it is.

Rent: for downtown living in the more expensive parts, you're probably looking at $1600-2500 cdn for a 2bdrm. Don't mind commuting 10-15 minutes on the train/by bus: $1000-1600 for a decent place. You can get a studio or 1 bdrm in the west end (downtown) for $800-1200, add a few hundred more if you're looking at coal harbour/yaletown.

Outdoors: Parks, everywhere - a couple large ones and tons of small ones (a couple soccer fields, running track, etc). You've got more ocean than you could ever ask for and a couple local mountains (~20-25 mins from downtown by driving, or take transit + gondola up grouse which will probably be an hour or so). And you're 1 hour from Whistler. Lakes and camping within an hour of the city. There's also Stanley Park right downtown. One of the biggest advantages seems to be that you can get outdoors and feel 'out of the city' within the city limits.

Entertainment: Hockey (NHL/WHL) and Canadian football. Same amount of large bands coming through here as any major US city, good small venues as well for some local bands and smaller acts.

Transit: The city has pretty decent transit and it's cheap. $2.50 for a transfer (last 1.5hrs) or ~$80 for a 1 month, unlimited 1 zone pass. There are 3 SkyTrain lines which will get you downtown pretty quickly from anywhere within Vancouver (15-18 mins max). Transit is pretty bus-oriented, but it's never really been a problem for me. Getting out of downtown might be a problem if you like to hang out past 2am and/or live in the sticks. Not much open 24 hours or really late other than a couple coffee shops and a handful of restaurants.

Biking: I don't bike but the city seems fairly bike friendly (and getting better), I believe we have 3 routes now with separated bike lanes downtown. You can bike safely from anywhere within Vancouver. My neighbour bikes to work every day from East Van which probably takes him 25-30 mins each way.

Tech Scene: It's alright, but we're working on it. I put together a startup hackathon last month and met a bunch of fellow Vancouver HN users. There are a couple startup incubators here and more coming (I believe), Bootup Labs seems to be the most well known. There are angels, VCs and the like here - but nowhere near the level of SF, NYC, Seattle.

Talent: 2 main schools with CS programs nearby (SFU and UBC), but talent seems hard to find - it's here, you just need to look. If you do find it, it can be fairly cheap though. Much much lower than the valley (from what friends have told me), there are no Facebook-like companies driving up salaries here. I'm probably going to get shanked at the next hacker meet up, but you can probably get decent people for $35k/yr (junior) to $70k/yr (senior/leads).

A big problem seems to be that you can count 'notable' startups on one hand. There are gaming companies here, both mobile/console and gambling. It's much more relaxed here and people just want to live life well. There are hardcore entrepreneurs and hackers here, but also a lot of wantrepreneurs and people who want to come in at 10, take an hour lunch and leave by 5. Very little of that 'startup culture' you hear so much about in San Francisco.

My opinion, but other Vancouverites feel free to criticize or add to this.

I find myself driving to Seattle for concerts more often than I would like. Lots of acts come to Vancouver but lots of acts skip Vancouver, usually (from what my music biz contacts tell me) because of two main reasons.

1. It doesn't make sense to add a border crossing to their schedule if it would mean doing just one show in Vancouver before returning back to the states or elsewhere.

2. Some acts have also quit coming to Vancouver because the audience attitude has made shows less enjoyable to perform here. It is sad but doesn't surprise me. I have watched audience enthusiasm progressively fade here, during the last decade especially.