If you're depressed making the first move to reach out to talk about your situation is really fucking hard, especially if people's perception of you is that you're some sort of go-getting independent business founder who can do everything. This is a reminder that it's worthwhile dropping an email/text/phone call to someone you've not spoken to for a while - it's possible that no one has reached out to them recently, and they need to talk.
The worst that could happen is you have a chat, while the best that could happen, without wishing to sound overly melodramatic, is that you save their life.
I think we need to work on removing the stigma around general therapy. I have not personally seen a therapist, but of those I know who have, they almost always talk of it being a positive experience. In some cases, they have even advocated semi-regular therapy as a general health regimen, much like you might see a dentist or doctor regularly for checkups.
Part of the stigma is the sheer number of well-meaning but unhelpful therapists. I went to several free and religious counselors when I was young, and had several worthless experiences.
Most of them just wanted to hear what I had to say, and had no advice, as though hearing myself talk about my problems would solve them automatically. A few gave suggestions but not things that would realistically help (Maybe you should try to be more social, to deal with your depression). Some put me into group therapy with people whose problems were much worse than mine, and this gave me the sense that my problems were small and not worth their time.
Having people goto therapy sounds nice in practice. In reality there are more problems in attending therapy than it promises to resolve, so you're likely to have even more problems than you started with.
There's a lot to unpack here... But let me touch on a couple of the points you raise - from the perspective of a trained, but non-practicing therapist.
First of all, there are lots of terrible therapists out there. Especially of the 'religious counsellor' variety (I'm shuddering at the phrase). I had a similar negative experience with a school counsellor who had an academic degree in psychology (which involves zero client hours) and had self appointed herself as a therapist in the educational context.
So choosing the right therapist is key. Well trained therapists with good experience are not free. Someone is going to have to pay for what is an expensive and highly educated professional service (for example it can take up to a decade to become a clinical psychologist here in Ireland). That might be government, charity, or client payment - or it might be that some excellent therapists offer a portion of their time at a reduced rate; but it's extremely unlikely that you'll get good therapy for free.
To address your second point however, I have to emphasise that the goal of therapy is not to give advice. It's explicitly antithetical to most schools of psychotherapy / counselling. There are many reasons for this - the therapist is there to be the one person in your life who doesn't evaluate you, people respond negatively to advice (with 'reactance') even when they desire it, advice isn't necessarily generalisable. But overall, if you're looking for advice you need to talk to a domain expert - e.g.: someone whose doing the job you'd like. If you're going through emotional difficulties, counter-intuitively the last thing that will help is concrete advice.
What the research shows is effective are things like the relationship between therapist and client, trust, tailored interventions (e.g.: CBT for PTSD or OCD) etc.
If you're ever interested in resuming therapy, I'd recommend reading more into how the different kinds of therapy differ. It sounds like some form of CBT might be useful for you - but above all the important thing is to work with a professional whose a good personal match for you. Picking a therapist is selecting someone with whom you'll be forming an intimate relationship, and compatibility is vital. So I'd encourage shopping around.
Counseling is mostly unregulated with practioners who have very little training. There's not much evidence base and what evidence there is is either weak, or suggests not to use counselling.
Modern (and I recognise some terrible practice used to happen) tries to have regulation through professional registration and protected names; and tries to work to an evidence based model.
I agree that therapy as evidence based treatment is fairly new and there there are still many terrible therapists.
So true. And sadly many people have absolutely nobody to help them in these situations. Just to get an appointment with a therapist requires a lot of courage and friend to help you do that move.
And all these "self control" and "self improve" books make things even worse (since they pretty much suggest to be a robot).
As a founder who struggles with severe depression, one of the few bits of advice that I remember when personally in a dark place is from a physician that had met with thousands of suicidal patients. He said:
"I've never had a patient who survived (suicidal thinking) and later wished that they had killed themselves."
Sorry I couldn't find the quote and may be paraphrasing a bit, I share this because this personal mantra has kept me from the ledge when my thoughts were otherwise debilitating.
Likewise, I read a news story (long time ago, source forgotten) that interviewed several people who had survived jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge. The reporter asked each one what thoughts went through their head after jumping before hitting the water. It wasn't relief or clarity - almost unanimously, it was "What have I done?!?" and immediate regret.
Another powerful quote: "The guy was in his thirties, lived alone, pretty bare apartment. He’d written a note and left it on his bureau. It said, ‘I’m going to walk to the bridge. If one person smiles at me on the way, I will not jump.’"
I went through a period of depression as well and had such thoughts. If you don't talk with someone you wind up solving a temporary problem with a permanent "solution". Thankfully someone lit into me with both barrels to seek help and I haven't had any recurrence in the past decade.
Just a friendly reminder that no matter how bad your startup is doing, or how much money you owe to who, or how much shame you feel.. life is worth a lot more than money. You can always earn more money, but you can't come back from the dead[0]
Well yes. We know. That's why it's tragic, horrible, and evil when someone is in such pain that they need to commit suicide. It's a blow for Pain over Joy, and for Despair over Hope, and a life destroyed to make that blow permanent.
When I was 16, the message I received was that the rest of life would be more of the same and I should just learn to deal with it. I found some solace in the concept of a Final Protest.
Suicide is also about more than just a failed startup. You don't kill yourself because your company failed; there were likely other issues such as depression that she was unable to overcome, though a struggling business doesn't help. If you're depressed, accepting yourself is hard even if you're winning.
In fact, winning can make it worse. When you're successful and depressed, the dissonance between your outward success and your inner self loathing/misery can be very painful. You think, all these great things are happening and I still can't be happy. I must really be a worthless, ungrateful piece of shit if I attain everything I ever dreamed of and that's still not enough for me. If this doesn't make me happy, that means I'll never be happy. bla bla bla depression talk.
Not that this is guaranteed, but I've experienced it and I would imagine others have too.
Yes, depression is usually not about the money, but personal issues. My hardest days personally have been when things were going well and best were when I was unable to keep the lights on/pay bills. When the business was almost failing I had my significant other with me 24/7. After I ruined the most important relationship in my life, the business improved dramatically and I was mentally in a far worse place.
I would happily leave the company to get her back or undo losing her. That's what people don't understand, you're an entrepreneur for the journey not the money (even if only subconsciously). Thus, people shouldn't assume there are money/ startup problems when someone is depressed.
I feel terrible for her family as well, perhaps not even knowing exactly what led her to do this (in which case some people may end up feeling guilty).
I'm wondering if any startup founders actually commit suicide because their startup is failing, or if they are just depressed and suicidal completely coincidentally. I ask this because I've never been in a situation where I could ever see suicide as a viable solution to any problem, and can't really wrap my head around some event happening which drives a previously sane and rational person to suicide, or even though of suicide
This hits close to home, being a 30-something software developer, and having grown up in a very religious, anti-intellectual household. Very sad, and preventable.
I talked to her a few times. The first time I met her I asked her to check out my app and give me her thoughts. A few days later she took the time to email me a couple of ideas. I thought I saw her recently as I was rushing home after a recent Meetup. Now I wish I'd stopped to say hi.
We're not journalists, but as suicide seems to be affected by social proof [1] perhaps we should bear these guidelines [2] in mind when commenting or finding an article to link to?
I mean, the going stigma out there is, sorry Cuban, "You have to work 24/7/365, because business is a sport and there is always someone looking to kick your ass".
The problem with this is we are human. We get stressed, we get depressed, we get overly confidant and then utterly destroyed when something does not work out that you've put everything into.
The stigma of having to work 24/7/365 is just a saying. Balance of work, exercise, social interaction, relaxation, and sleep is far more important. Yes Mark Cuban said that, but what does he really do? Even when hustling very hard, he still went out to the bars with friends, still relaxed, etc. What he really meant is that when he WAS working, he was working incredibly hard.
What I'm getting at is the quotes and the movies/shows of programmers pulling 24 hours straight is not healthy. Yes it has been done, even by very successful people...Bill Gates, but how many do you not hear about? The ones who take their own lives or become depressed for very long periods of time.
Working like this is dangerous. Balance is key, we are only human.
This is so upsetting. After reading a few articles, I don't get the sense that this was about her startup (it doesn't seem like the company ever had any real revenues). She was apparently very depressed and struggling financially, coming to the end of her lease on her apartment with no place to go, and presumably unable to come to her family for help because of their disapproval of her secular lifestyle. It could easily have been a spontaneous decision on the roof that she didn't plan out or even really think about. It's just a shame that her close friends didn't realize how bad things had gotten and done more to help her (e.g., give/lend her money, offer a place to crash, a job offer, etc.) Often the only thing that stops people from suicide is the thought of the damage it would do to their parents and siblings; if your relationship with your family is in shambles, this sort of thing becomes less unthinkable.
Not trying to criticize here, but i've never cared for the term "stay strong" it's like telling someone who's depressed to "just be happy". I get the sentiment though, just something about the phrase that irks me i guess.
I agree completely. It presupposes that you're already strong and doesn't help you when you're not strong, so it ignores the real troubled time.
Everyone goes through troubled times at least 10% of the time. (yes, that's 4 hours of a typical work week) Learning to handle those is very tough, but achievable. If the best you can do is tread water until it passes, that's good enough.
And it's also okay for people to see us in our non-optimal states. It humanizes us to one another and actually makes us trust each other more than it "tarnishes" our reputation of excellence.
I agree with you. In the end these are just words and these are inefficient tools for the task. But as opposed to being a call to action, it's purpose is provide a supportive thought.
People typically use the phrase when they really don't know what else to say. For the most part, its not to be mean or just tell you to be normal, its they don't know the words to say since they have never had to deal with a clinically depressed person is going through. You can rage at them, but it won't help either person.
We don't deal well with mental health in the US. There is a political legacy from both parties and their interactions, and when an event comes along that is clearly a mental health issue we blame some inconsequential symbol to fight as opposed to doing the hard work. I get the feeling living in a hashtag-protest world is not going to improve the situation for mental health issues.
I understand it as "I know the situation is hard, but try to keep your head up (don't do anything extreme) because things will get better if you fight for it"
Yea i agree, but i'm not debating the meaning, rather the delivery. I really like the phrase, "you are not your work", because it comes from the opposite direction. To "stay strong" it sounds like you're not acknowledging that it's ok to be 'not strong'.
>Not trying to criticize here, but i've never cared for the term "stay strong" it's like telling someone who's depressed to "just be happy".
Just as most people aren't depressed and thus can influence their own happiness and can take responsibility for their own emotions (depression is a disease which robs a person of this control), I believe most of us are responsible for our willpower and strength.
Through meditation, or reflection, or any number of ways, we can center ourselves, we can strengthen ourselves, we can be better.
I understand that if you have a disease like depression you cannot take control of your happiness, but that doesn't absolve the rest of us of our responsibility for both mental health and physical health.
Just as we work out our bodies we must "work out" our minds, and stay strong is a message to the 95% of us who have control of ourselves to stay on our path to mental and physical health and the benefits it provides.
It is a shame. Just looking at her profiles and accomplishments you can tell she was special. Not to mention having the guts to switch from accounting to development as a woman in a male dominated industry.
May you rest in peace Faigy. I will pray for you and your family.
wtf is going on? seriously, why are these startup founders killing themselves? Why is it that they can't stop and walk away when what you are doing is not making you happy? Why do you put someone who is well off enough to throw you some pocket change above your own livelihood and your life? I just don't get it.
>After she jumped, some customers continued to drink at the swanky bar
>seriously, why are these startup founders killing themselves?
If I may be a politicizing dick, severe inequality means that seemingly small failures or successes can have massive, oversized influence on the course of someone's life, and also means that we socialize people, from youth, to take each possible failure or success that much more seriously, as that much more determining of their overall life course and meaning in the world.
It runs directly contrary to imbuing resilience in people, and in society.
Anxiety disorders and suicides are the price of having a society and a world in which increasingly many people have everything on the line, at every step, all the time.
You're making a fair point--and feeling like you have everything on the line at every step is most likely going to ramp up someone's level of anxiety and stress with all the negative impacts that entails. However, I also think there is a counterbalancing point that framing life as an all-encompassing economic gamble actually reinforces that anxiety and stress by making it seem like economics is the whole of existence--and for folks who are feeling overwhelmed by feeling like their failure or success hangs in the balance it is likely to drown out a more healthy counter-narrative which is that you're probably not "ruined" if you fail. It'll suck (believe me I'm still paying shitloads of student loans for a career I quit almost a decade ago), but you can still have friends and community and value things in life that aren't work or career. People who are at the point of attempting suicide have drowned out all those positives with a tunnel vision on the pressure of success/failure that is blinding them to other possibilities (see comments above about people who survived jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge).
So yeah, the economics of operating without the feeling of a safety net sucks, but people who are starting to crumble under that safety net need to hear that the safety net isn't just their runway, it's also all the family and friends and life that they have or can build. Unfortunately in this particular case it sounds like she was in a transition and didn't quite have those solidly in place yet.
The first question that comes to my mind when I hear about a startup death is: how much sleep did she get a night? How much did she drink on a regular basis? What drugs did she do on a regular basis? How much stress was she under on a regular basis? Working hard, partying hard, never sleeping and a crushing amount of stress is a recipe for death and dysfunction.
The worst that could happen is you have a chat, while the best that could happen, without wishing to sound overly melodramatic, is that you save their life.