So, rather than attack the "grade school idea" of democracy, perhaps we should be considering why our execution has failed to live up to the ideal. Because, to the extent that we allowed it to happen, we've also done so by choice. You might even say democratic choice.

You're clearly so invested in this ideal that you even retroactively shoehorn acts against or apathetic to it in the same framework. This isn't worth discussing because the conception of democracy you're operating under is simplistic and incorrect.

I agree that it's the current state. But, I don't believe that it must be this way by some natural law. Maybe that's where we depart.

>so invested in this ideal

I'm invested in the notion that somewhere between where we are now and the ideal state is possible, and that we'd be far better off reaching for it. What alternative are you proposing?

>retroactively shoehorn acts against or apathetic to it in the same framework

I don't know what you're trying to say here. If you're merely pointing out that there are people and even systems that work against the democratic ideal and that apathy among the populace does the same, then there's no revelation there. You're simply stating an endemic problem of which most semi-conscious people are aware. But, what's your conclusion?

>* the conception of democracy you're operating under is simplistic and incorrect*

It's more likely that your conception of my conception is simplistic and incorrect.

This I can agree with. Even if the ideal state cannot be attained, we're really far from even an approximation of it.

You're simply stating an endemic problem of which most semi-conscious people are aware. But, what's your conclusion?

I'm trying to say that democracy should not be revered as much as it is, but that more importantly people tend to be ignorant of its machinations. They completely set aside hugely important details like voting systems (such that FPTP guarantees party dichotomy as per Duverger's law), externalities, fraud, gerrymandered districts, and the idea that we should vote on people instead of policies.

The latter is ass-backwards by all measures. Vote policies and have the people fill in the demand for their execution. Instead you have a system that incentivizes deceptive and bombastic political campaigns with an extremely narrow ideological set. When you refuse to participate, you're told you can't complain. When you do participate and your candidate turns out to be a total actor, then again it's your fault for electing them, but remember, folks - democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others. Which is why the way we do democracy is absolutely infallibly correct.

It's more likely that your conception of my conception is simplistic and incorrect.

Perhaps, but your original comments were quite rude in the way you shoehorned life into a primitive idea of "voting". There's something about democracy that it has become a secular icon which shuts off people's ability to reason, and makes them refuse to improve their axioms.

But, there are also many thinking people who are as aware and passionate as you and I about how broken it is and how far from the ideal we are. So, you could say that we have a special responsibility here. The question then becomes what are we going to do about it? It's easy to make statements and paint those we feel are "less-enlightened" with a broad brush. But, it doesn't move us any closer to the ideal. In fact, those people must be led.

>but your original comments were quite rude in the way you shoehorned life into a primitive idea of "voting"

Actually, if you kook carefully, you'll find that I didn't introduce the idea of voting. I think you're a little too eager to paint everyone with the same brush.

In any case, my original post was simply saying that it's not enough to go around with these platitudes about work/life priorities when our very survival currently depends upon work.

So, if we really believe what we espouse regarding what's important, then we should be working (via whatever means, including "fixing democracy") to make our society reflect that. Otherwise, we should stop pretending that it doesn't.

Rather, we should stop pretending that it does.