Most of the countries that I listed are not US allies. A minority of them receive US military and other aid because it's deemed a necessary evil. The classic example is Saudi Arabia. We don't like what they do internally and we don't like that they push their puritanical form of Islam around the world, but they're an essential ally in a very unfriendly region; and the collapse of their monarchy would create a very dangerous power vacuum. Pakistan is another example where the US has had to bite the bullet and deal with a very flawed ally, because the alternative is deemed to be worse.

As for the UN being unable to do much without US approval, it's simply not relevant to this discussion. This has nothing to do with the Security Council, which is where the US can exercise its veto.

I think the close relationship with Saudi Arabia is really more about oil than anything else. Saudi Arabia is probably the biggest financier of Muslim terrorism in the world, and yet is conspicuously missing from the US list of countries that fund terrorism (yet Cuba was on it until recently). Of course Saudi Arabia is also the world's largest producer of oil, and that's the primary reason why the US (and most of the oil consuming world, really) wants to be their friend. It is of course also why they have so much money to fund terrorism.

Looking at the wiki page for Vietnam, they seem on par with the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Vietnam

  - Minorities pushed off their land so the majority can settle on it? Hello American Indians.
  - Holds 160 political prisoners? Hello Guantanamo Bay. (not to mention the US imprisons 5x as many people by proportion of population, some operating as labour camps) 
  - A bloke arrested and charged with subversion? Hello Snowden, who barely escaped.

Vietnam doesn't have freedom of political affiliation or freedom of speech (rates very low on the press freedom index, for example), but apart from that, the US seems to be quite happy to engage in the same kinds of human rights abuses.

Even right down to corruption in police: witness the state of civil forfeiture laws in the US, which isn't recent either - Jello Biafra was singing in the 80s about having his property seized and legally sold before he was tried in court. Or the police abuse of blacks.

I mean hell, one of the greatest violations of human rights in the 20th century was the US war in Vietnam. Atrocities left, right, and centre. I just think it's a bit much to be painting Vietnam as having an atrocious human rights record, all the while implying that the US is some sort of gold standard.

You make valid criticisms about the human rights record of the US, but what is missing is a sense of proportion.

Is it really your view that the US human right record is on par with Vietnam, particularly if you need to qualify it by excluding "freedom of political affiliation or freedom of speech" from your comparison?

Proportionate? The US has killed 4 million Vietnamese and poisoned large parts of the country with chemical weapons.

I doubt that their "regime" has ever done something comparable.

How many millions did any Vietnamese government in past or present kill in the middle east. How many terrorist organizations are currently run out of Hanoi in comparison to those run out of Washington?

Does the Vietnamese president sign kill lists and run torture camps across the globe?

Eh, I didn't really exclude it - I noted it. I was trying to show that abuses of human rights aren't limited solely to political affiliation and assembly.

And yes, arguments of proportion cut both ways - look at the incarceration rates in the US, a huge proportion of which is for a victimless crime (possessing drugs). Vietnam also doesn't go pounding its military around the world - there are hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, all due to a war started to shore up domestic support in the US, for example.

Human rights extend to all humans, not just citizens of the state in question.

Edit: I guess my fundamental point is that the implication was that the HRC would do better if the US was a member, based on members' track records. But the US's track record isn't particularly good either (particularly in regard to non-US citizens)

In the US it also takes other shapes. Incarceration rates at 1% of the population, including something which could be argued is corporate slavery, with a heavy bias for a particular portion of the population.

If you aren't part of that demographic it may not seem so bad. But the numbers are absolutely awful.

Which part in particular? Seems pretty accurate to me.

Maybe I should start by asking which doesn't seem like paranoid nonsense to you?

Well, you're the one who made the declaration. Seems like the onus is on you, right?

To make it easier, maybe you can point to just one of the statements in that comment that hasn't historically happened.

There isn't a single sentence in that paragraph that isn't blatantly false or at least grossly exaggerated.

Ok. Let's pick the first. You're saying that the U.S. has never supported a government or dictator who had a history of human rights abuses?

Never? No, not never. Do we prop them all up like he implies?

Oh, I see. You're making that kind of argument--introducing some new and arbitrary standard called "all".

So, back to the original point: the OP commented that the U.S. does X. You then stated that his claim was "paranoid nonsense".

If someone has a history of doing something, then it's not "paranoid nonsense" to point out that it's something they do. It's just a rational observation.

So, that's it then? His claim is paranoid nonsense because the U.S. hasn't propped up all human rights abusers.

No, I'm pointing out the stupidity of your position. Just because the US "propped up" a handful of dictators out of the hundreds in the world doesn't mean what he's saying isn't paranoid nonsense.

Actually, it does.

In his defence Russia and China don't really apply to what I said so he's got that going for him. Other than that thanks for pointing out the lack of validly articulated criticism, such as doesn't belong on HN. Even more telling is that lack of a valid response to anything you said.

Here is the list of your "handful":

Africa MOBUTU SESE SEKO Dictator of Zaire 1965-1997 MOHAMMED SIAD BARRE President/Dictator of Somalia 1969-1991 GEN. IBRAHIM BABANGIDA Military Dictator/President of Nigeria 1985-1993 GEN. SANI ABACHA Dictator of Nigeria 1993-1998 HASTINGS KAMUZU BANDA Dictator of Malawi 1966-1994 LAURENT-DÉSIRÉ KABILA President/Dictator of the Democratic Republic of the Congo 1997-2001 GNASSINGBE ETIENNE EYADEMA Dictator of Togo 1967-2005 FELIX HOUPHOUET-BOIGNY Dictator/President of the Ivory Coast 1960-1993 HASSAN II King of Morocco 1961-1999 TEODORO OBIANG NGUEMA MBASOGO President/Dictator of Equatorial Guinea 1979-present ZINE EL ABIDINE BEN ALI President-Prime Minister/Dictator of Tunisia 1987-2011 ANWAR EL-SADAT President/Dictator of Egypt 1970-1981 HOSNI MUBARAK President/Dictator of Egypt 1981-present IAN SMITH Prime Minister of Rhodesia (white minority regime) 1965-1979 PIETER WILLEM BOTHA Prime Minister of South Africa (white minority regime) 1978-1984, President 1984-1989 DANIEL ARAP MOI President/Dictator of Kenya 1978-2002 HAILE SELASSIE (RAS TAFARI) Emperor of Ethiopia 1928-1974 WILLIAM J. S. TUBMAN President/Dictator of Liberia 1944-1971 SAMUEL KANYON DOE Dictator of Liberia 1980-1990

Asia MOHAMED SUHARTO Dictator of Indonesia 1966-1998 NGO DINH DIEM President/Dictator of South Vietnam 1955-1963 GEN. NGUYEN KHANH Dictator of South Vietnam 1964-1965 NGUYEN CAO KY Dictator of South Vietnam 1965-1967 GEN. NGUYEN VAN THIEU President/Dictator of South Vietnam 1967-1975 TRAN THIEM KHIEM Prime Minister of South Vietnam 1969-75 BAO DAI Emperor of Vietnam 1926-1945, chief of state 1949-1955 LEE KUAN YEW Prime Minister/Dictator of Singapore 1959-1990; behind-the scenes ruler since then. EMOMALI RAHMONOV President/Dictator of Tajikistan 1992-present NURSULTAN NAZARBAYEV President of Kazakhstan 1990-present ISLAM A. KARIMOV President/Dictator of Uzbekistan 1990-present SAPARMURAD ATAYEVICH NIYAZOV President/Dictator of Turkmenistan 1990-2006 MARSHAL LUANG PIBUL SONGGRAM Dictator of Thailand 1948-1957 FIELD MARSHAL THANOM KITTIKACHORN Prime Minister/Dictator of Thailand 1957-58, 1963-1973 CHIANG KAI-SHEK President/Dictator (Nationalist) of China 1928-1949 President/Dictator of Taiwan 1949-1975 CHIANG CHING-KUO President/Dicator of Taiwan 1978-1988; Prime Minister 1972-1978 DENG XIAOPING De facto ruler of China from circa 1978 to the early 1990s FERDINAND MARCOS President/Dictator of the Philippines 1965-1986 SYNGMAN RHEE President/Dictator of South Korea 1948-1960 GEN. PARK CHUNG HEE President/Dictator of South Korea 1962-1979 GEN. CHUN DOO HWAN President/Dictator of South Korea 1980-1988 SIR MUDA HASSANAL BOLKIAH Sultan of Brunei 1967-present GEN. LON NOL Prime Minister/Dictator of Cambodia 1970-1975 POL POT Dictator of Cambodia 1975-1979 MAJ. GEN. SITIVENI RABUKA Dictator of Fiji 1987-1999 ASKAR AKAYEV President of Kyrgyzstan 10/27/1990-2005

Europe FRANCISCO FRANCO Dictator of Spain 1939-1975 ANTONIO SALAZAR DE OLIVEIRA Dictator of Portugal 1928-1968 COL. GEORGIOS PAPADOPOULOS Prime Minister/President/Dictator of Greece 1967-1973

Latin America ANASTASIO SOMOZA GARCIA Dictator of Nicaragua 1937-1947, 1950-1956 ANASTASIO "TACHITO" SOMOZA DEBAYLE Dictator of Nicaragua 1967-1972, 1974-1979 MANUEL ESTRADA CABRERA Dictator of Guatemala 1898-1920 GEN. JORGE UBICO CASTANEDA Dictator of Guatemala 1931-1944 COL. CARLOS ENRIQUE CASTILLO ARMAS Dictator of Guatemala 1954-1957 GEN. JOSE MIGUEL YDIGORAS FUENTES President/Dictator of Guatemala 1958-1963 COL. ENRIQUE PERALTA AZURDIA Military Junta, Guatemala 1963-1966 COL.CARLOS ARANA OSORIO Dictator of Guatemala 1970-1974 GEN. FERNANDO ROMEO LUCAS GARCIA Dictator of Guatemala 1978-1982 GEN. JOSE EFRAIN RIOS MONTT Dictator of Guatemala 1982-1983 MARCO VINICIO CEREZO ARÉVALO President/Dictator of Guatemala 1986-1991 MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ Dictator of El Salvador 1931-1944 COL. OSMIN AGUIRRE Y SALINAS Dictator of El Salvador 1944-1945 CIVILIAN-MILITARY JUNTA, EL SALVADOR 1961-1962 COL. ARTURO ARMANDO MOLINA BARRAZA Dictator of El Salvador 1972-1977 JUNTA, EL SALVADOR 1979-1982 ALFREDO FÉLIX CRISTIANI BUKARD President/Dictator of El Salvador 1989-1994 TIBURCIO CARIAS ANDINO Dictator of Honduras 1932-1948 COL. OSWALDO LOPEZ ARELLANO Dictator of Honduras 1963-1975 ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA President/Dictator of Honduras 1982-1986 GEN. OMAR HERRERA-TORRIJOS Dictator of Panama 1969-1981 GEN. MANUEL ANTONIO MORENA NORIEGA Dictator of Panama 1982-1989 AUGUSTO PINOCHET UGARTE Dictator of Chile 1973-1990 GEN. JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA Dictator of Argentina 1976-1981 COL. MARCOS PEREZ JIMENEZ Dictator of Venezuela 1950-1958 GEN. ALFREDO STROESSNER Dictator of Paraguay 1954-1989 ALBERTO FUJIMORI Dictator of Peru 1990-2000 FRANCOIS "PAPA DOC" DUVALIER Dictator of Haiti 1957-1971 JEAN-CLAUDE "BABY DOC" DUVALIER Dictator of Haiti 1971-1986 MILITARY JUNTA / LT. GEN. RAOUL CEDRAS, GEN. PHILIPPE BIAMBY and LT. COL. MICHEL-JOSEPH FRANCO Haiti 1991-1994 GEN. RENE BARRIENTOS ORTUNO President/Dictator of Bolivia 1964-1969 GEN. HUGO BANZER SUAREZ Dictator of Bolivia 1971-1978 DR. GETULIO VARGAS Dictator of Brazil 1930-1945, 1951-1954 GEN. HUMBERTO DE ALENCAR CASTELLO BRANCO Dictator of Brazil 1964-1967 CARLOS PRIO SOCARRAS Dictator of Cuba 1948-1952 FULGENCIO BATISTA Dictator of Cuba 1933-44, 1952-1959 GERARDO MACHADO MORALES Dictator of Cuba 1925-1933 RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO Dictator of the Dominican Republic 1930-1961

Middle East MOHAMMED REZA PAHLAVI Shah of Iran 1941-1979 SADDAM HUSSEIN Dictator of Iraq 1969 (1979)-2003 GEN. MOHAMMED AYUB KHAN President/Dictator of Pakistan 1958-1969 GEN. AGHA MUHAMMAD YAHYA KHAN President/Dictator of Pakistan 1969-1971 GEN. MOHAMMAD ZIA UL-HAQ President/Dictator of Pakistan 1977-1988 PERVEZ MUSHARRAF Dictator of Pakistan 1999-2008 ABDUL IBN HUSSEIN I King of Jordan 1952-1999 TURGUT ÖZAL Prime Minister of Turkey 1983-1989, President 1989-1993 SHEIK JABIR AL-AHMAD AL SABAH Emir of Kuwait 1977-2006 Prime Minister of Kuwait 1962-1963, 1965-1978 FAHD IBN ABDUL-AZIZ AL SAUD King and Prime Minister of Saudi Arabia 1982-2005

I see. So anyone we ever dealt with in any capacity was "propped up". Gotcha.