Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press ...
Well put ... and does not absolve anyone of the consequences of their speech. People keep forgetting that exercise of rights have consequences for which they may/must be held accountable for. Say what you like, but be aware that you are still accountable for how you obtained that content, or what happens as a result of what you say.
To counter your opinion, I will quote to you from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
> Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
The US Bill of Rights is simply an acknowledgment of the inalienable right to free speech, is it not a definition. The role of the US Constitution is to define the powers of the US federal government. The absence of a protection from private attacks on free speech is not an endorsement thereof. It's simply the nature of the document.
All too often I see the expression, "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences." In fact, that's precisely what it is. The freedom to say what you want without being punished for doing so, whether that punishment be execution, imprisonment, social exclusion or anything else. Society seems to be accepting some limitations to free speech (i.e. shouting fire in a crowded theater, personal political opinions having professional ramifications, etc.). If we've decided, as a society, that it is necessary to limit free speech then let's be honest about it. We should not present those limitations as some inevitable part of having free speech in the first place.
Freedom of speech is freedom from consequences. That we have decided consequences are sometimes necessary is a testament to how much we value freedom of speech.
As I noted elsewhere here (esp. my bit about "fire!"), there is a difference between consequences emanating from the speech due to others acting on the information therein, vs punitive consequences contingent on the speech itself.
Don't confuse punishing someone for yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater regardless of reason for doing so, with punishing someone for instigating a crushing stampede by yelling "fire!" in a theater when there knowingly wasn't a threat thereof. Both are certainly "consequences"; I'm concerned that some here seem unclear of the difference and would protect the speaker in the latter case on grounds conflated with the former.
Perhaps I shouldn't have used that example. I wasn't trying to make a value judgement, rather to point out that we have collectively decided, "yes, we like free speech - but only up to a point." That's fine, I'm OK with it, but I think we ought to be clear that when we place limits on where and how people can express themselves we are, by definition, limiting their freedom of speech and expression.
I disagree that the difference you've identified truly exists. In some cases we punish a speaker based on how others reacted to what they said, in some cases we don't. We deliberate on these things on a case-by-case basis, there's no consistent rule.
Yelling "fire" into a crowded theater is more than speech. Similar to when a person gets in another's face and screams at them it becomes more than speech. We can restrict modes of expression without restricting content.
> We can restrict modes of expression without restricting content.
Absolutely we can, but we need to be careful in how we do so and we really should be limiting those restrictions to the smallest number possible.
Niceties like "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences" help us easily accept more restrictions on speech - in fact they make those restrictions seem like common sense! As a society, though, we should be ultra-vigilant when it comes to protecting our speech and only restrict it when we are absolutely sure it is necessary. I'm not just talking about legal restrictions here, either, cultural restrictions are just as important. We don't want to find ourselves in a situation where the "mode of expression" being restricted is, say, talking to friends in a bar.
> we really should be limiting those restrictions to the smallest number possible.
Agreed. I was only trying to produce a notion of speech that we can safely declare inviolable. There may be a gray area between that which is certainly black or white. Having those boundaries lets us explore it while mitigating the slippery slope.
> Say what you like, but be aware that you are still accountable for how you obtained that content, or what happens as a result of what you say.
In other words, say what you like, but don't be surprised when they haul you off to a concentration camp for being a naughty little thought-criminal, huh? It's your fault for saying whatever you said! You should have been more careful!
No, that's punishing the speech itself - NOT addressing the consequences thereof. Do I really have to explain the concept? Saying that "I have it on clear authority that vacri & sillygoose are thieves; liars; adulterers; responsible for a toxic spill that poisoned kids; stole from the pension accounts; rigged elections; etc" is of itself not actionable, but if such libel can be adjudicated the cause of otherwise baseless abuse by society inflicted on vacri & sillygoose then yes I can be incarcerated as a danger to society.
Apparently some people can't discern the difference between punishment of speech and punishment for consequences of speech. Obviously such people need be kept out of legislative office.
Honestly, I wouldn't be too upset if the ones who committed the abuse itself were the ones held responsible. The person who said that ctdonath is a predator has wronged you but the one who stabbed you because they thought you a predator is the criminal.
The consequences come down on both, one is a homicide the other is a case of manslaughter, both should be judged by the law, and punished if that's the judgement.
> No, that's punishing the speech itself - NOT addressing the consequences thereof.
You do realize that the kind of speech that needs to be protected is not the kind with negative consequences for innocent bystanders, don't you? It's not like I'm defending yelling "fire!" in a movie theater.
The poster whom I responded to didn't seem aware of these distinctions, which is why I snarked at him.
> Do I really have to explain the concept?
No, you don't.
> Apparently some people can't discern the difference between punishment of speech and punishment for consequences of speech. Obviously such people need be kept out of legislative office.
But I guess it's alright to have liars, crooks and wannabe-tyrants in there?
It's not like I'm defending yelling "fire!" in a movie theater.
I absolutely do defend the right to yell "fire!" in a movie theater. I also absolutely think you are subject to the consequences thereof.
If there IS a fire, then by all means yell "fire!" accordingly.
I've twice seen Penn Jillette stand on stage before thousands, juggling flaming torches, pontificating loudly about and proceeding to yell "fire!"
I've seen the movie _Backdraft_ in a movie theater; there was much yelling of "fire!" therein.
And, of course, if you scare a crowd into a life-threatening stampede by yelling "fire!" when there isn't one, then you're culpable for any harm that follows.
All of this is different from what you portrayed, which was incarcerating someone for yelling "fire!" in a theater purely on grounds of doing so, regardless of whether there was/wasn't a fire and whether (in case there was) it posed a threat.
> I absolutely do defend the right to yell "fire!" in a movie theater. I also absolutely think you are subject to the consequences thereof.
That's still not the kind of speech that needs to be protected and heard, as I'm sure you're aware. So I can't see a reason to spend this much time discussing yelling "fire" in a theater.
> All of this is different from what you portrayed, which was incarcerating someone for yelling "fire!" in a theater purely on grounds of doing so, regardless of whether there was/wasn't a fire and whether (in case there was) it posed a threat.
I portrayed nothing of the sort. Here's what I originally said:
>> In other words, say what you like, but don't be surprised when they haul you off to a concentration camp for being a naughty little thought-criminal, huh?
But nevermind, we've probably wasted enough of each other's time here.
> That's still not the kind of speech that needs to be protected and heard
This is the whole point of the discussion, right here. You're discriminating against a certain type of speech because you've judged it to be the wrong kind of speech. Once you've set a precedent that the wrong kind of speech can be infringed, you no longer have free speech - you have a struggle for the power to define allowed speech and disallowed speech.
It seems like you are unnecessarily conflating speech and the consequences of speech.
No false dichotomy, I didn't suggest that it's either crooks or those who "can't discern the difference between punishment of speech and punishment for consequences of speech".
The point was just that there are much more obvious problems with people in positions of power than not being able to distinguish with punishment for using one's vocal chords and punishment for whatever it caused.
The false dichotomy is that if one opposes one group one can't oppose the other. Or that if there are several bad things, drawing attention to one means approving another.
This is an honest question: if someone uses their freedom of speech to vocally support overthrowing a democratically elected government and replace it with a fascist dictatorship, would the government watching that person closely be a violation of their free speech?
Watching, insofar as it does not get into 4th Amendment search-and-seizure territory, is reasonable. This is a variant of: you have the right to publicly say what you like, and I have the right to listen, document what you said, and say you're an idiot for saying it.
Well put ... and does not absolve anyone of the consequences of their speech. People keep forgetting that exercise of rights have consequences for which they may/must be held accountable for. Say what you like, but be aware that you are still accountable for how you obtained that content, or what happens as a result of what you say.