This can backfire in a big way...I will post this in the hopes the person I'm talking about doesn't read this website (I find it unlikely that she does).
I met a girl who seemed very cool. She was really smart, into computers (she's a programmer), funny, etc. etc. Basically everything that I look for in a good friend.
SO I invited her out to grab some beer one night.
Now, the thing is...I'm a bit of a beer snob. I invited her to go to my favorite beer drinking place...a place which features nearly 500 varieties of imported and microbrewed beer...all really great stuff.
Well, when we got there, I ordered a beer that is ~$20 a bottle (it is a very very limited run that new belgium did, and is quite good).
Her, not being a beer nerd at all, found a beer she liked, and ordered 3-4 of them...(it was a lambic from Belgium).
Now, because I'm a nice guy, near the end of the evening, I got up and talked to one of the bartenders and paid the check... The reason I did this was mostly because this girl was not a beer snob in any way, and probably had no clue how expensive what she was drinking was.
This girl decided that this gesture was me in some way trying to hit on her, and now refuses to talk to me. :(.
Some people get really weirded out when you try and do nice things for them, so be careful. Some people even go so far as thinking that you're offering to buy them lunch because you think they can't afford it.
Even from this angle it sounds like you were trying to hit on this person. For some reason paying for food with the opposite sex is seen as courtship behavior. Try it with a (straight) man and see if he thinks that you are hitting on him. With amusing exceptions, its unlikely that he'll take offense.
Well...the thing is that I normally DO pay for my male friends.
If I call them up and say ask them to go out, they're usually all broke (mostly students). I'll pay because, to me, its worth the extra few bucks to have somebody to drink with...
(or are you saying that people are just being irrational? Your last sentence makes me believe so.)
Well...the thing is that I normally DO pay for my male friends.
Then you know exaclty what I'm talking about. My point is that gestures can mean different things when performed for men and for women. There's nothing irrational about it.
I was once friend-zoned by a young lady I was interested in, and got to listen to a whole lot of talk about other guys. In particular, there was one gentleman that got upset with her because he thought she was, quote, leading him on.
"Mary, what do you do with him?"
"Oh, movies, dinner, that sort of thing."
"Who pays for these?"
"He does."
"And he says you're leading him on?"
"Yeah, what's up with that?"
"That's because you're leading him on."
Some time later I realized that Mary (not her real name) had a persistent habit of using people, and I began spending my time with people who did not value me solely for what I could do for them.
>Some people even go so far as thinking that you're offering to buy them lunch because you think they can't afford it.
Excellent point, I've seen a kind gesture blow up in a person's face for exactly this reason. It's always best to offer, ask or at least let the other person know BEFORE paying the check.
I question "refuses to talk to me :("... Have you really tried going back up to her and saying "Hey - wanna go hit that beer joint again?"
Perhaps you're just assuming the worst...
Also, the simplest way to not look like you're hitting on her is to go with a group. If you have other really smart, into computers, funny, etc. etc. people who enjoy beers, why not get some of them together anyway, and then ask if she wants to come join you. Even if she says no, you still get to suck down your $20 beers and talk hacker stuffs.
What would be great is, since as you did say she's a smart programmer, if she also reads HN and actually has a chance to give her side of the story on this. Sounds like it would be a fairly unique situation for her to identify. That would be so priceless...
I am not defending her blanking you , but what was unwise was not paying for her, but doing so behind her back. "Look, I'm the person who likes the overpriced beer, let me pick up the tab" would have given you some additional data points with which to decide whether it was safe to proceed or desist.
Or you're looking for an excuse that she doesn't like you, that you fucked up, weren't interesting to her and/or maybe she likes fucking with guys or she's just a bitch.
When I used to have a lot more disposable income I used to do this kind of thing all the time. If I would go out to eat with friends, I would very frequently make a habit of paying for everything.
I'm not sure why I did it, honestly. I think I just wanted to do something nice. I also figured it would just be a nice gesture to "take care of the bill" so that everyone else wouldn't have to worry about it and could maybe relax and enjoy the rest of their evening without the possibility of them being concerned about how much money they had spent. I think on some level I felt guilty about other people spending money. And when I would buy someone a meal or buy them a few drinks I wouldn't want or expect anything out of it. To be honest, it made me a little uncomfortable if people made a big deal about it or even said anything more than "Thanks".
I've had times in my life when I've had extra money to spend and had times when money has been tight. And I know I've experienced occasions where money is tight and you go out for a meal with friends and spend a portion of the night feeling guilty that you're spending money. I think that when I had extra money, I just wanted to make sure that no one was feeling that way. I just wanted to give them the opportunity to enjoy the night, or enjoy lunch, or whatever it was we were doing.
I generally don't pick up the tab when going as a group. For one thing it gets expensive really fast, and secondly you just don't get the same "mileage" from it.
The amount of good will you receive when paying for a 1v1 meal is a lot greater than the good will you receive when paying for the whole table. It's the personal touch I suppose, the feeling that you did it for him/her, as opposed to "them".
This goes back to the issue of, 'Why are you doing it?'.
In my situation I wasn't doing it to receive any "amount of good". I was just doing it to do my friends a small gesture. And if I could do 5 friends a small gesture, that's probably more gratifying to me than doing only 1 of my friends a small gesture.
I (an Intl. student) usually try to buy meals of my friends (mostly Americans i.e.) but hardly get anything in return (I really don't expect anything in return any way) i.e. they act cheaply sometimes even though they have the $$ and live affluently - this is the trend I've noticed since my undergrad years (some of my other Intl. friends have echoed similarly) Yes, I was born in a different culture, where guests mean a lot to us, but it's more than that - a sense of gesture and common-sense (may be?).
If you're oriental you're in for a shock. Westerns tend to be a little, ummm, cheap. Gifts are not valued by them as they're in the east. OTOH, some orientals, specially arabs and chinese will probably bankrupt themselves hosting lavish dinners for others; while not a good idea, it at least buys them some social capital. Whoever takes care of the others is taken care of by all. While to Westerners, if you're out of money you have no recourse but the bank.
It's interesting to read the responses here from a population that tend to be more technically focused than people focused. (I'm included)
We're all trying to reverse engineer the intent of the acquaintance. The lunch-buyers out there are much less calculating; they just like hanging out with people at lunch!
"Instead of buying things, we should buy memories...Money spent on experiences - vacations or theater tickets or meals out - makes you happier than money spent on material goods"
It's funny, because my intuitions always ran the other way--you should spend money on something you'll enjoy over and over again, not just a single experience that ends soon. The fallacy, of course, is that a sufficiently good experience is remembered again and again, and that is often more valuable than a durable good you've grown tired of (or a higher number on your online banking site for you to look at).
For me, a good compromise is to buy supplies for making stuff. Then I have the experience of creation, which I love, and I also have the finished product. When I visit art shows, I often think "I want to learn how to do that." I'd much rather make art than buy it (with some exceptions that are beyond my budget for the present).
It's a fine line between doing a nice gesture for a friend simply because you want to and doing it for an acquaintance in order to earn favor. If you're the least bit phony, it will show and it will backfire. Sounds like your friend was the real deal. Good for him and good for you!
If I am going to be around a phony person I'd rather get a sandwich out of it than not. Since the act of buying lunch doesn't actually make someone phony, I don't see a downside.
In this case, how do you know the act isn't phony? If you know that person is sometimes phony, you'll be left wondering whether anything they do for you is insincere, including buying lunch. I couldn't accept it if I smell something off about their intentions.
I think there are worse things than a lunch paid for someone who is insincere (such as having to pay for lunch with someone who is insincere). It's not really worth worrying about to me actually.
Seems a little too concerned with earnestness for my taste. All non-pathological human interaction is based upon establishing relationships that are beneficial to at least one party.
So what if someone wants to curry some favor with me? If it's a nice enough lunch maybe they've earned it!
I have known someone like this. In his case he was doing it for two reasons (1) he's a genuinely nice person and enjoys doing things for people and (2) he knows that it can sometimes "grease the wheels:" that is, it leaves the other person with a positive memory of him that can be useful later.
The take home message though is that his primary motivation is just his good nature; the benefit is a side effect.
I feel like a real jerk for even mentioning this, so first let me say it sounds like this guy was a really good guy.
But this is a researched social phenomenon known as the reciprocity effect. He's done something for you, so now you feel like you somehow owe him something in return. Often that's "paid back" by positive social feelings. I really hoped I could find a solid citation for you, but the basis of it is found in Robert Cialdini's excellent book "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion".
icey - no need to feel like a jerk - three blogs upstream is the original article http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/23/... and it specifically says that spending money on your social network "buys you" mutually positive social effects.
But I need to point out there are huge cultural specificities here. In the US it is common for two unrelated (and even related!) people to split the bill. Hence, picking up the tab may have a positive social effect in the manner described because that runs contrary to expectations.
In other cultures it is traditional for one person to pick the bill. Either this designates social status (the most senior person pays) or a close-knit culture that ensures future reciprocity - eg. I'll buy you lunch today because I feel like it, and I know we'll have lunch many times and sometimes you will pick up the tab so it will all wash out in the end.
I meet and get to know a lot of people in my line of work. I've had the privilege to work with some tremendous folks.
Looking back, you try to spot patterns.
It's just that I've always thought fondly of the guy, more than all the other nice people I know, and never really thought about why. Reading that article made me think that he really knew how to enjoy himself. He knew how to spend money to make himself happy. And in return, he did this really cool thing for other people too.
It's not that buying lunch made him any nicer, I don't think. He's just a regular person -- not a salesperson or some charismatic person at all! He wasn't trying to game the system. He just learned that buying people lunch and stuff made him a happier person. And for the rest of us it had this incredible effect.
Weird question, but how did he go about offering to buy?
Offering to buy someone lunch can be a little awkward, especially in situations where it isn't usually done. My hypothesis is that they way someone pulls this off is the differentiator between whether it seems authentic or phony.
He never ever offered to buy. Just whenever the check came, he completely insisted on paying the whole thing. He wouldn't have it any other way.
So it's not like he was going around asking to buy people lunch. We just had lunch and did stuff like anybody would.
You know, this is going to make me sound awful, but at the time I kind of thought of it as flaw -- it was even a bit insulting at times. He just wouldn't let me pay for anything. But he was that way with everybody.
It didn't stand out so much that I noticed it right away -- hell, it took me four years to figure it out. Just looking back, I don't think I ever paid for anything when we went out. And he did that to everybody. Four of us would go out for lunch, and there he was, insisting on picking up the check. At the time it was almost stressful, because I knew when the check come we would always argue over paying it. But it looks like long-term, he had a much more successful happiness strategy than my counting pennies!
This post sounded better than the original article. Not that fact that he brought lunch made you like him, but that he was a pretty amiable guy to begin with, and that he found his happiness by buying lunch for people he liked for a shared experience.
The original post made it sound like one can be easily brought with a quick lunch. I personally am wary of having just any stranger do me favors because then I'd feel obligated when they ask me for something. This is how people end up buying entire rugs when they go to have 'just a drink of tea'. But yes, I understand this wasn't the situation you were talking about.
It wasn't the actual buying of the lunch, it was the friendly and outgoing gesture and attitude. (Which can be characterized and cultivated by buying people lunch.)
I agree. If all the guy brought the table was a couple bucks for food, I wouldn't want to take lunch with him. The guy can't be an empty suit. Good stories and laughs are always welcome at my table.
I think the main point here doesn't even have to do with the money. Everyone feel appreciation differently. Many people would think fondly of you if you just take the time to ask how they are doing, and really care to hear the answer. It doesn't even have to be of monetary value at all.
I do this all the time! Yet, I am not sure if the close friendship with these people is a cause or effect of the lunch. But looking back, I think I get this cool fun friend vibe from these people at our very first meeting.
I don't use this as a technique. I don't know if it scales:)
I wonder if paying for someone's lunch might, in some cases, might make them feel less friendly towards you. For example, if they feel as if they owe you something and are not in a position to return the favor. They may start avoiding you in that case.
This just goes on to prove that "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach" :)
As a side note I got to say that I would've stopped going to the lunch with a person who'd kept insisting on paying all the time. If not for any other reason, but for the fact that I just feel plain uncomfortable with this kind of arrangement as it clearly puts me in debt to that person. Paying back with a friendship feels wrong and "He is that kind of person" is not an excuse enough.
Agreed. Although it's entirely possible that we aren't normal; I despise debt in any form, which clearly is not an attitude shared by large portions of the population.
I met a girl who seemed very cool. She was really smart, into computers (she's a programmer), funny, etc. etc. Basically everything that I look for in a good friend.
SO I invited her out to grab some beer one night.
Now, the thing is...I'm a bit of a beer snob. I invited her to go to my favorite beer drinking place...a place which features nearly 500 varieties of imported and microbrewed beer...all really great stuff.
Well, when we got there, I ordered a beer that is ~$20 a bottle (it is a very very limited run that new belgium did, and is quite good).
Her, not being a beer nerd at all, found a beer she liked, and ordered 3-4 of them...(it was a lambic from Belgium).
Now, because I'm a nice guy, near the end of the evening, I got up and talked to one of the bartenders and paid the check... The reason I did this was mostly because this girl was not a beer snob in any way, and probably had no clue how expensive what she was drinking was.
This girl decided that this gesture was me in some way trying to hit on her, and now refuses to talk to me. :(.
Some people get really weirded out when you try and do nice things for them, so be careful. Some people even go so far as thinking that you're offering to buy them lunch because you think they can't afford it.
Tread lightly, that's all I'm saying...