I think the big takeaway here is a lot of companies don't care, these are the rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like they have to. I've done it quite a few times.
But what we really need is more self-realization like this at the top. This is where the change for these sorts of policies can happen. On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than people so much of the time. But, on the other hand, there is still room and freedom to make your own way and write your own rules.
I think about this topic a lot, especially because I am fighting burnout myself. I didn't do any work for most of xmas break and when I went back this week I kept thinking "I need another few months off". I even had to push for the two days after xmas off - there was a little push back from the ceo since we're a small 4 person company. But, I'm a little older than everyone and I was thinking "fuck it, I need to chill".
Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about working when you want, where you want. I think there can definitely be a balance between being on vacation a lot and outsourcing all the non-important work to other people who will do it. Time Ferris is a great read for this type of living and it exemplifies the work to live not live to work thing (or work as little as possible and really live).
I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about that pressure - vacation was not vacation. I told myself: 1) I'd never work for someone else on vaca again - ever, and 2) I'd never make anyone else do that. Needless to say after a few days I was like, 'fuck this, this is the stupidest thing in the world. I'm in one of the best food and historical places in the world and the guys at home want me to keep coding. Bullshit.'
I think there's a point where you either keep going with everyone else's rules or you make your own. Get busy livin or get busy dyin. I'm at the point in my life where I'm getting to the last of dyin for someone else's deal and starting to live for my own. It's not impossible, just take discipline and focus. Otherwise, me, and everyone else is working under someone else's thumb, by their rules, working on vacation. Dumb.
> a lot of companies don't care, these are the rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like they have to.
Keep in mind you're only talking about America among developed countries. All others have much more leave, maternity, sick days mandated by law, and people take them.
Legislation aside, I think it's important to note the US's cultural distinctness here (probably in an unhealthy way.) I spent a year after college backpacking, and I was surprised to find that productivity and travel aren't mutually exclusive, nor are travel and vacation the same thing.
I think this notion is more widespread in other cultures (as you say, from many other more developed countries) and from that stems legislation. Based on my experiences, I do firmly believe that most of us would benefit by getting out of our home countries, more often and for longer.
>All travels do not need to bring you to expensive places.
Absolutely. But tens of millions of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, so they can't even afford to take a week or two off and stay at home reading/relaxing/playing with the kids/whatever.
Basically, they are slaves, they just don't know it.
The only reason they are living paycheck to paycheck is because of the lifestyle obligations they've chosen. They chose to sign a 1-year lease or worse, buy a mortgage. They chose to marry or have kids.
It is only the result of these choices that they 1) need paychecks and 2) have already spent those paychecks.
I have a friend that works on a fish boat for 4 months out of the year, and spends the rest of the year hiking.
I have a friend that teaches middle school, and spends the summer months travelling.
They probably make less money per year than the paycheck-to-paycheck person you have in mind, yet they have the time to travel because of their lack of obligations.
At some point, most people actually worry about buying a home, getting married, things that require resposibility and consideration of someone besides themselves.
Don't worry! You'll be in the same situation someday, and then you will realize how ridiculous your statement is.
And all holiday need not involve travel. My ideal holiday would be a week at home with a stack of old sci-fi novels, Mariokart Wii and a long walk in the countryside every day.
> I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about that pressure - vacation was not vacation.
I recently experienced something similar but possibly even stupider. At the end of November I caught the flu from my niece and took a very rare sick day off work. I laid in bed and slept and felt miserable, which is totally expected, of course.
The ridiculous part was the fact I also felt guilty for doing nothing all day except lay around and sleep. Here I was, totally unfit for doing any work at all, experiencing guilt for not working and also for not doing anything around the house.
This is unhealthy and I only partially relate it to being part of the tech community. I think another big part of it is my upbringing in a traditional, immigrant Protestant family with a powerful work ethic. That can help you get ahead but it also brings with it a lot of bullshit.
I feel a lot like that, And I know many hard working people who feel like that.
I don't think there is any thing wrong with that kind of an attitude.
And I can also assure that's some thing not restricted to our profession alone. A lot of people have to be in the game to feel comfortable. There are tons of people who are supposedly in retirement but still put in crazy hours to keep themselves sane.
Beyond the craving to be seen by your own self as productive. Showing up for work has other benefits, like socializing, meeting people, knowing things, current affairs and continuous learning. None of that is possible sitting at home.
Another thing that I see among people who while away time at home is their attitude towards their family. If there is some one around more productive ego clashes are inevitable. And human mind always seems to converge towards doubts, uncertainty, fear and in general negative emotions when left alone.
I try and look at it this way when I feel that guilt: WHat would I think on my deathbed? Would working that one day really make any fucking difference when I'm about to go? 99% of the time it won't.
"Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about working when you want, where you want."
Have you ever worked for yourself? Because I can guarantee you, unless you bill $500 / hour and have a lifestyle you can sustain on $4000 / month, you will never 'work when you want, where you want'. Ferris is a charlatan - like most self-help books, there are some fundamentally good (if vague) ideas in his books, but please don't fall in the trap of believing that what he describes is doable as easy as he makes it out to be, and/or in a sustainable way.
(I work for myself, and I prefer it over working for a boss, but in the end it's still the same bullshit you need to put up with - and then some).
You obviously have never seen how a king lives. At $4k, you will live like the median American. Maybe that looks good if you're from $1/day but, it's not nearly royal ever.
If you take into consideration your quality of life, it's probably better than a lot of medieval (and even more recent) royals. A car replaces a horse drawn carriage which required a driver, stable staff, etc. You can get meals delivered from restaurants for minimal cost. You have access to a massive variety of foods from around the world. Fresh fruit, veg, and meat is easily affordable. You have a machine to wash your dirty dishes. You have a machine to wash your clothing.
You have access to nearly every piece of human knowledge on demand for almost no cost. You can communicate with anyone, anywhere in the world, at any time, for virtually no cost. You have access to more sources of entertainment than you could consume in a lifetime, at a very low cost. In your pocket you carry a super computer with a multi-core processor, high resolution display, solid state storage measured in gigabytes, with voice and touch interface, that can access all these things over a wireless high speed internet connection.
Every person living in a developed country is living a lifestyle that would have required many servants in any other era. People are just spoiled, greedy, entitled shits. They have no appreciation for how good their lives are. They have no comprehension of the complexity of the underlying systems that make their lives so incredibly easy. And yet they always want MORE.
FYI, 'living like a king' doesn't mean 'live like a 14th century royalty'. It's a saying that means 'live a pleasurable life without worries about practical matters like money, and generally be much better off than those around you who you can pay to do things for you'.
Exactly, and at $4,000/month you would have to be conscious about your money spending habits, else that income will quickly disappear. Sure, you can stretch that amount to provide you ample comforts but you'll be making specific decisions to cut back on certain things or perks to provide a high enough standard of living in other areas.
When I think of "living like a king" I don't particularly imagine "14th century royalty", but I do imagine being able to buy the latest laptop with ample memory and an SSD, for example, without having to think twice about the expense.
Sure, and if you can find some gigs that pay $500/hour, you're golden. I'm perfectly happy living on $4000 / month myself, and probably a bit less too. My point was that only at that baseline you can really 'choose how much and when to work'.
(also, $4000 / month pre tax and expenses is less than $2000 / month pretty much anywhere in the developed world.)
Perhaps the better idea is to first become financially independent (see: Your Money or Your Life). Once free from having the need to work, then you really can be your own boss.
No, companies do not care and they have no imperative to do so (old-guard companies, at least). That's why its perfectly OK to call them out on their crap and take your holidays when you need them. If they're a big company, their cost/benefit will probably run lower than cost/benefit to your sanity (and your partners sanity, and your family, and your friends etc etc.). Being a grown up means you take what you need, because like your own life, a companies existence is temporary and (likely) meaningless. It's not a badge of honor to run yourself into the ground for some brand-x corporate. The US is way off, culturally, in this regard. Wanna screw the 1%, fight for and take your holidays, that's a really good start! :D
(disclosure: 4-6 weeks off foreigner in the US going what the hell to 2 weeks leave+no perf. bonus. Its bullshit, I don't get why people roll over and just take it. Love punishment? Validated by being victims? What the hell)
People accept the current situation for two reasons:
1. Protestant Work Ethic (work is morally good, not-work is morally bad, therefore do work)
2. Capitalism race to the bottom (if you take 2 vacation days, the company can fire you and hire someone who will take only one, then fire him for someone who will take none)
It really, really sucks. But if you get any ideas about standing up for your rights or organizing your labor, remember that the nail that stands up is hammered down. That, plus most coworkers will look at you bug-eyed if you propose that working conditions can be improved by worker organization and negotiation with employers-- after all, they're just trying to do their part and earn their portion, not get involved in some scary organized/unionized/socialist political mess.
There's not even a cultural foundation to build something like a campaign for more sensible vacation policy. Indeed, the cultural foundation is predisposed against such things.
I have never seen someone fired or heard about someone fired for taking vacations, at least not in the industry I work in. I have, however, read a lot of history of unionized workforces having lavish vacation and sick policies (e.g. one municipality has to fire entire police force due to unions becoming unmanageable - at any given day, 1/3 of workforce was out of work[1]) and pension costs destroying local budgets and pushing them into bankruptcy. Another municipality had to pay union teacher 40K to leave since he was accused of 23 instances of sexual assault on students but it still wasn't possible to fire him. "Rubber rooms" for such people in NY are notorious. Here's another guy[2] who has $110K salary and well-protected union rights - he is a criminal and a fraud, and yet he and his union sued the state and won not only his job back but back pay. And he also works in correctional system. The press is flooded with such cases, this is just a random sample.
Thank you very much, I do not want any of this crap nowhere near me.
In my first job doing software development I never quite realized you were supposed to inform them about vacations etc; I didn't even know about the concept of vacation days (I guess they must have told me when I started but maybe I wasn't listening...). So I'd just take off for two or three weeks whenever there was nothing big pending and I happened to feel like a break.
To their great credit (in my eyes!), nobody ever said a thing about this. Just before I left I found out that the receptionist had taken to noting down when I came in just so they had some sort of record of which days I worked (so I guess they missed the days I came in after 5pm, but hey).
Sadly, I am now aware of vacation days, and duly check with my manager before taking time off... TT
> On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than people so much of the time.
Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the world? About creating products that touch millions of lives, about doing our small part to make the world a better place?
Then again I'm not good at vacations. I don't switch off well, I'm the guy reading a book or playing a game while watching TV. Heck at times I'll play two video games at once, or play a game while reading an article. A two second pause in action in one game is plenty of time to alt tab out, read half a sentence, and alt-tab back in.
Heck two seconds feels like an eternity at times!
> Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too).
Nope, although a good profit sharing plan would be appreciated! I love working within a team of people, we can get a lot more done together than as individuals!
If you can't enjoy yourself that's up to you. Don't take your vacation but it shouldn't impact everyone else's ability to take one. Many people want to travel, spend more time with family or friends, or just have a more interesting journey in life. Everyone is different.
I don't switch off either, one of my former housemates has a photo he thinks is amazing of me
playing 2 computer games while watching a movie and texting.
But I've recently signed on with a company with around ~6.5 weeks leave a year. I already have it worked out:
- I go to Hawaii for a week, to Surf.
- I'm going to New Zealand for a week, to Ski.
- I'll be buying an around the world trip for the other 4 weeks.
All of these will be very active and I don't have to turn off I'll have my laptop with me at all times.
> Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the world? About creating products that touch millions of lives, about doing our small part to make the world a better place?
I find this hard to swallow, if you're talking about an amazing piece of software it might take X hours to build, if it's cleaning up the oceans it might take Y hours, either way a holiday only delays that and allows you time to yourself.
I'm sure everyone here realizes that there's a maximum amount of hours you can work continuously in programming per day. Well it also applies on a longer timescale. Taking some time off will boost your productivity in the long term.
>Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the world?
Business is about money. You want to make an impact on the world? Go into something other than business: volunteering, activism, organizing, politics, any of that stuff.
> Business is about money. You want to make an impact on the world? Go into something other than business: volunteering, activism, organizing, politics, any of that stuff.
I strongly disagree.
Ford, made a huge difference in the world.
Apple, huge difference.
Microsoft, huge difference.
The original AT&T, huge difference.
Key decisions by individuals at those companies have had more impact on the world than most of us can ever hope to have in politics or through volunteering or any other activity, and though at least partially technical merit, it is possible to get into a position to be the one making those decisions (which often time can consist of nothing more than a developer making wise well thought out choices in a design!)
Corporations are huge force multipliers, capable of pulling of feats of engineering that small teams just do not have the resources to do.
I have to say that I think the big takeaway is radically different. Riding off the marathon analogy, taking vacations is critical to prevent burning out. In the long run it will keep you more productive and in turn be better for the company.
Tim Ferris has some great things to say, but there's also the inherent risk that when working alone and taking a vacation, no one else is there to watch your back.
Culture at some companies is definitely more what like what you described, particularly at finance firms, but there are definitely cultural shifts happening right now as less college grads are going straight to finance every year, allured by the perks that tech firms have to offer such as unlimited PTO in some cases.
It seems like your situation is very different from that though. Working at a small startup is really hard, particularly when you already have a family. I wish you and your startup the best of luck in the coming year.
Is "unlimited PTO" ever not window dressing for a more predatory policy? Anywhere I've worked with this policy had implemented it so that ever taking vacation was a negotiation with your boss (not something you could just comfortably declare), and it led to not being paid for any surplus vacation days (as none exist but an "infinite" amount) when you do finally leave said job because of burnout.
Anecdotal data point to the contrary: the company I work for switched to "unlimited" as of the 1st of last year. I took more vacation on the unlimited plan than I used to than I had on the accrued-PTO plan (4 weeks vs. 3). So it can happen, if the culture is right, and you have a manager that actually understands the value of vacation for both the employee and the employer.
It can be good. I've had it a couple of places, and never had to do any more "negotiating" than at my job before that had regular metered vacation. Now that I'm somewhere that's not in the really early stages, where I'm not solely responsible for as much stuff, it's pretty easy to just say "hey, I'm going to be out a few days next week" or "hey, this is the time I'm taking off over the holidays."
What's rare, but an extremely nice bonus on top, is when you get to "accrue" a small amount (maybe a week a year) as well that you never dip into but's there to be paid out to you when you leave. But that's not something I'd expect to be able to negotiate for at my next job, so if they didn't have it I'd try to just get a bit more salary to compensate...
allured by the perks that tech firms have to offer such as unlimited PTO in some cases.
"Unlimited PTO" is usually a bad thing, at least in startups. I don't like vacation tracking-- I think it's a waste of electrons and ink-- but the one company over 10 people where I worked that had "unlimited vacation" was a place where 2 weeks would usually get a person fired for "culture fit".
I'd be more inclined to work for a company that offered 5 weeks (more than I need, at this age) than one that offered "unlimited". If nothing else, the former is better because it gives you the ability to say, "I'm used to 5 weeks" in negotiating a job offer and increasing the likelihood of a match. If you say, "I'm used to 'unlimited vacation'" you make it sound like you worked at a disorganized company and you won't get matched.
In the latter case, you can simply say, "I'm used to X weeks", where X is the number of weeks per year that you personally usually took off while on the "unlimited" plan.
When I see "unlimited" PTO mentioned in job ads, I get the sense that someone put it in there because they got the idea (from some medium post or somewhere) that this is what all the other "it" startups are offering, and so hence, they should, too. Without like, you know, taking a couple of seconds to think about what it actually means.
Not knocking on my folks in Europe, but if you've ever had to deal with a business relationship with anyone in the EURO-ZONE during the month of December - forget it. It's not to say its anti-production, but I DO want to say a healthy lifestyle as a company owner is based on moderation. There are times when you need to do that 13 consecutive-day hack-o-thon, but those are rare. If you build interatively and not trap yourself you can easily get away once a week to seclusion w/o disrupting the balance of things - even if its a tech start-up. It's scale of economy that applies to your personal life/work balance.
Developers underestimate their value and their ability to say "no". If you are a productive coder, the job market is great. If you take vacation assertively (say, six weeks a year) bosses simply can't afford to object.
But what we really need is more self-realization like this at the top. This is where the change for these sorts of policies can happen. On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than people so much of the time. But, on the other hand, there is still room and freedom to make your own way and write your own rules.
I think about this topic a lot, especially because I am fighting burnout myself. I didn't do any work for most of xmas break and when I went back this week I kept thinking "I need another few months off". I even had to push for the two days after xmas off - there was a little push back from the ceo since we're a small 4 person company. But, I'm a little older than everyone and I was thinking "fuck it, I need to chill".
Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about working when you want, where you want. I think there can definitely be a balance between being on vacation a lot and outsourcing all the non-important work to other people who will do it. Time Ferris is a great read for this type of living and it exemplifies the work to live not live to work thing (or work as little as possible and really live).
I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about that pressure - vacation was not vacation. I told myself: 1) I'd never work for someone else on vaca again - ever, and 2) I'd never make anyone else do that. Needless to say after a few days I was like, 'fuck this, this is the stupidest thing in the world. I'm in one of the best food and historical places in the world and the guys at home want me to keep coding. Bullshit.'
I think there's a point where you either keep going with everyone else's rules or you make your own. Get busy livin or get busy dyin. I'm at the point in my life where I'm getting to the last of dyin for someone else's deal and starting to live for my own. It's not impossible, just take discipline and focus. Otherwise, me, and everyone else is working under someone else's thumb, by their rules, working on vacation. Dumb.