I always considered myself a night owl. I'd stay up until 2-3am for the night time serenity. My partner and others disapproved and considered it unhealthy.
Now I wake around 3-4 am and get the same night time serenity. But the perception of this patten is different. I'm considered an early riser - disciplined and driven.
I've noticed my concentration is much better under the new early rising regime.
Here's my schedule:
- 4 am. Wake up. Depending on my mood and deadlines I'll either jump straight into work or take some leisure time surfing the web.
- 5 am. Dog wakes up and makes it clear that we're going for a walk. So we go to the park and play. The park is empty at this early hour so its good for training.
- 7am. If I havent done so already I start work to coincide with my team on the other side of the country.
- 3pm. Start winding down. Have a beer.
- 5pm. Parter comes home from work and we go to the park with the dog. Lots of dogs at this time and its great fun for all.
- 7pm. Dinner.
- 8pm. Bed.
- 4am. Wake.
Does my social life suffer? Well i've found that its a case of diminishing returns. I used to be the guy who partied until 3am. Now I party until 10pm. And I've discovered I'm having just as much fun. It would seem socialising is a case of diminishing returns for me. I also avoid the shattering hangover.
I've tried this, but find waking up in the darkness hard to get used to. I mean, I can set an alarm and get up, drink some coffee, and pretend I'm now up, but it still feels like weird zombie-time until the sun starts rising to mark it "really" being morning. Whereas when I stay up late the nighttime doesn't feel like that. Could just be familiarity, but seems like the sleep->wake transition happening during darkness could be an issue. Maybe it could be artificially assisted if my apartment interior had more/brighter lights.
I used to have an hour-long train commute to work each day, and I'd sleep as late as possible while still leaving myself enough time to catch my train. So at 5:40am my alarm would go off, and I HAD to get up. There was no snooze.
The commute is long gone but the habit of rolling out of bed immediately never broke. I'm grateful for it. I used to spend half an hour snoozing, groggily working my way out of the bed to start my day. I didn't get a whole lot of extra rest, just wasted half an hour not really sleeping, but not doing anything else either.
I agree. Also waking up in the dark tends to depress me. I think I even get more bad dreams when I'm in my later stages of sleep and it's still nighttime. It's like my mind knows it's going to wake up in the dark and it's not happy.
There are two main issues with this sleep schedule:
1) Getting home at 5 (not likely with a job in the US, especially with a startup-job like the one I had in the valley, where performance often seems to be measured mainly by the amount of time one is physically present in the office each day)
2) Most of social life happens in the evening, even over the weekend. I guess one could get away with it in the Netherlands, or other countries where bars stay open all night, and many only start going out around midnight (one could become known as the ultimate party animal by being fully awake while others are getting sleepy around 4 AM... ;-)
Finally, I did try a similar sleeping schedule for a week when I was hiking on Frazer island in Australia. To conserve the batteries of my flashlight I went to bed at sundown (around 7pm) and up with sunrise (around 4am), and I rarely felt more well-rested...
But yes, due to synchronisation issues with others circadian rythms I don't think radical sleeping schedules will become common soon...
A couple of years ago my wife and I made a concious decision to move closer to the city. We pay more in rent but save a bundle of time/money by not driving so much.
And yeah, I used to have a job where performance was measured by time spent in an office. I got a different job.
My second life is that of a competitive collegiate rower waking at 4:30am so this all resonates very strongly with me. It's especially noticeable on campus where people will party hard and then sleep until 1pm when possible; you really come to appreciate the tranquility in the morning. Add in the rush of water moving by leaving ripples on the mirrored plane of the river and the sunrise over the city and you get a form of meditation most will never come to experience. I can't say the same as you in terms of my questionably existent social life, however.
Hm, if I just get a dog, the social weakness in the schedule is solved! Walking the dog at 5am in the park sounds really peaceful.
8pm-4am sounds a lot better. Shifting my schedule later a few hours would be a good compromise. I still get up early, but I don't sacrifice that evening.
I tried getting a dog to solve the same issue. It did not work out so well. If you can put up with all the whining, barking, vet visits, 3 months of basically chasing around a pooping, peeing toddler, then go for it. It is not as simple as being the "pack leader".
Getting a dog is likely not going to solve your problems and you should fully investigate the myriad negative consequences of getting a dog, including robbing you of your freedom. Also, if you don't live in a house where the dog has free access to a backyard I strongly recommend against it.
Your are going to need to socialize it as a puppy. Going out on walks at 5 am does not sound like a good socialization opportunity. And what is the dog going to do while you're at school?
Many people fail to appreciate it which is why there are so many ill behaved dogs and shows like Dog Whisperer. Meanwhile the owner is still socially inept and now they spend all their time with their dog. It's like saying you should have kids so you can socialize with other parents...it doesn't add up.
Agreed, although it should be stated that Ceasar Milan ("Dog Whisperer") is basically a fraud that has no dog training experience and just makes shit up. There are tons of documented examples where he makes things up on the fly, entirely contradicting what he's said in previous shows.
Sure, you can control any dog by beating them (literally) into submission...but you won't have a dog that enjoys your presence. His tactics are effectively "Be the boss, choke that dog, ALPHA ROLL....see how well it's behaving now? Shaking and with it's tail between it's legs?"
If you get a dog, invest some time in learning about positive reinforcement training and buy yourself a $1 clicker. Your dog will love it, love you and retain it's natural curiosity...instead of crushing all sense of self-importance and initiative.
I was working on a ship over new year's and was standing dock watch in the early hours of the morning (~2am). A couple of people on bikes stopped by, had a chat about the ship and rode on. Turns out they liked to do their training rides in the morning when there were no cars to get in their way. Besides, it was too hot during the day.
A family definitely curtails lifestyle more than a dog. I find that in an urban environment, the dog is actually much more constraining when dealing with _society_ (i.e. neglecting that a child requires much more "training" investment). Dogs can't ride public transportation. Dogs aren't welcome in cabs or many stores (esp. food stores). Poor dog behavior at home may mean constant barking, which neighbors will not tolerate. Dog parks are few and far between. etc.
I could survive in the city with a kid and no car. With a dog, I need a car to take him anywhere outside of walking distance.
We live 200 metres from a very large off leash dog park. Lots of dogs means good socialisation. Lots of off leash exercise means a contented dog who doesnt bark or cause trouble.
If the park wasnt so close we either wouldnt be living here or wouldnt have a dog. Its essential in an urban area.
I have attempted the pretty much the same thing. I would sleep at 9, get up at 5. I would probably like earlier, if not for my fiance's schedule and my 1+ hour commute. If your work/family/social schedules will allow it, I would highly recommend it. My jaunt into being an early riser ended when my work had a series of meetings with China all starting after 9pm. I might attempt it again after I move closer to work. I really loved working out before work.
This is essentially my grandfather's sleep schedule.
He uses the early morning hours to go hiking, snow shoeing, hunting, reading, and journaling. This schedule works especially well during hunting season because it allows him to have breakfast and hike out to his spot before the animals wake up with the sun.
I'm considering adopting it because I telecommute and it would give me some quiet hours to work before the kids and wife wake up.
I also telecommute and the quiet hours are particularly valuable.
A nice side effect is the reward of getting stuff done first thing in the morning. It puts me in a good frame of mind for the rest the day.
Conversely, if I dont get stuff done in that morning period I feel I've wasted the opportunity to do 'real work' before the email and meeting requests start piling up.
This whole scheme makes sense if your work is flex-time or if you are in california interfacing with people in new york (guessing based on "- 7am. If I havent done so already I start work to coincide with my team on the other side of the country.")
When you are in new york and working on a set schedule (like the US equities markets running from 9 AM to 4 PM) its difficult to maintain a nonstandard schedule.
We try and make that 3 hours high quality. Walking the dog at the park is a very social affair, there are a number of regular dog owners who we've become friends with. Its an off-leash park so watching them all play is very enjoyable.
Dinner is very much an event in our house. I am a (very) amateur chef and cook dinner for my wife every night. Because I finish work in the afternoon I have some time to prepare something nice. After the dog walk we can have a glass of wine and then sit down for a proper dinner.
Its not perfect, but much like the socialising we've found quality over quantity works for us.
I'm sure this schedule will completely fall apart when we have children.
For a few months the morning walk is in darkness. But the park is well lit and given our proximity to the inner city its never really pitch black outside. It does get very cold though.
There's a solution to socializing under such a schedule and that is to take a nap during midday. This way you can stay up to 11pm and you have the benefit of feeling refreshed during the afternoon.
The author mentions it at the end but this schedule is really only good for the asocial. I submit that unless you truly have a aversion to social interaction, it will get lonely.
I know this because I used to work night shifts and pretty much had this schedule. You end up losing the period of socialization which is typically 4-10PM, where people go to dance classes, have dinners with friends, go get drinks etc... and things feel lonely.
I think it works for maker's who take a long term view of returns on social investments. Sacrificing friends of a certain quality today in order to put in the work it takes to make friends with the people one admires, but doesn't currently know, and whom can raise their stock in life, so to speak, has a higher relative return than being present with his college bar crowd. I'm not suggesting friendship should be a business move only, but that one doesn't miss out on all that much by forgoing the maintenance of superficial connections in the present to focus on their goals. Of course not all college age friendships are superficial, and some can last throughout life, but these are the minority, whereas the majority are much more ephemeral.
I tend to sleep from 5am - 10am and take a 3 hour nap during the day, say 1pm - 4pm. It's a bit degenerate but I work from home and can do this.
The advantages are I fulfill all my night-owl hacking needs and have a good social life. And I can make any morning meetings by adjusting my first sleep to 4am - 8am.
Apparently before the invention of the light bulb, most people divided their sleep into two sections. The details are sketchy but there's widespread reference of "second sleep" throughout history. I think it was the sort of thing they went to bed at 9pm - 1am and then 4am - 8am.
Those of us who embrace this magical nocturnal world don't praise it to the day walkers. It gives them the terrible idea that it may be good for them to try. If this pattern were to continue, our reign over the darkness would surely end.
There is a serious disconnect if you suggest that there is very little distracting content being generated and at the same time note that your day starts at the same time as your coworkers in the UK.
But then again the whole thing suggests total isolation from anything other then work and study, with the alternative rhythm just being a way of making that easier.
This is a story about someone socially isolating themselves, the 5pm bedtime thing might just as well be "living on the north pole".
With school and two part-times, I had not much purely social time reserved during weekdays, sleep schedule aside.
The experimental sleep schedule is temporary until I finish school. But given the fickle nature of sleep schedules, this will not likely last that long regardless. But for now, I don't mind it!
I admire what you're doing, and the post was well written btw. Continue to follow your own rules, most great people in history do. And if ever you feel like you need to tweak your social life, you'll know what to do.
Quite coincidentally - I've just come back from the butchers, who shared with me his opinion that 3am was the optimal time to wake up and 'get stuff done before people start getting in the way'.
When I have too much on my mind and I wake up around 3 or 4am (and don't go back to bed), I realize it's awesome to have that extra time before the day starts. However, when I've done jobs where I must get up at 5am, I almost need to be forced out of bed.
I've got an uncle who, for over a decade, has woken up at 3am, though he doesn't go to bed until 10pm. It makes me wonder if just doing it makes one better at it since we're talking about something we've done our whole lives. My personal sleep pattern (12-7/7:30) hasn't changed since the early 90s.
To be honest my generalization has less to do with schedules/who your partner is and more to do with the supply of partners. I think that (in the US at least) in college sex is less dependent on one partner compared to later in life.
I read your profile and appreciate the sentiment re: votes. I am not trying to be crude. Within this context this is my best effort at a thoughtful response.
Y'know, maybe I'm off base, but my perception is that for people not in a committed relationship, college sex was basically like this:
1. Go to party
2. Get wasted
3. ????
4. Wake up hungover: "What, I'm really in bed with this person? WTF, how did that happen?"
Anyone disciplined enough to maintain an unconventional sleep schedule, probably isn't doing that to begin with. And doesn't it fall under the general "lack of social interaction" complaint?
But I don't know if this is a particularly productive line of discussion. I'm only here because there were no posts about Haskell on the front page. :)
That would throw me into deep depression from loneliness since my social activities outside work are in the evenings (since that is when other people do that kind of thing).
Yeah, whilst he mentions work and school, there's nowhere to just be social with people in that schedule. What do you do if you want to go to the cinema or the theatre, or just the pub?
I've also been doing this for the past few months. Only difference is I have to get 10-12 hours for some reason. So it turns out to be either 12pm-12am, 3pm-3am or 5pm-5am. All of which are great.
I think the greatest merit of doing this is not being tired when you start your day. When you wake up at 8am and go to class or work at 9am, your brain just hasn't had enough time to wake up. I've failed many exams for this reason. Now when I take my exam, I've already been up 8 hours and I even get all that extra time to study.
This is true! It also helps the work(/school?)day go by much quicker, since the first half isn't dragging due to grogginess and the second half isn't suffering from the poor mood the dragging first half generated.
I would imagine one of the weaknesses of this kind of schedule is the variations that occur when you have an evening function that you just need to go to, ie., birthday party of your best friend. And what happens when you have a few evening functions you need to go to in a week? I would imagine that would mess up one's rhythm. Sure, you could try to get back to your schedule with diligence and effort, but I can't imagine it's that simple. Over time, that might become draining. But it seems like you get so much stuff done from midnight to 8am, maybe it's worth skipping the evening functions altogether or if you need to go just re-adjusting to your schedule (even being a bit groggy) because of the huge productivity gains you're seeing.
One of the interesting things from the blog post was how it's easier to concentrate when the Internet slows down. I find that 9am to 5pm on weekdays there's just so much content being published everywhere, and so much of that content is interesting, that I find myself easily distracted during the day. I've had to hack my own system of focused goals, pomodoro work sessions, and other homemade hacks to get the productivity I need during the day. So, I can totally see how someone can get tons of stuff done during the middle of the night while everyone else is sleeping.
Btw, Kevin - how long have you been doing this schedule?
I agree, this sleep schedule is not very sustainable due to can't-miss evening functions. But it is working out very well for me for now because it is late in my school quarter. I spend a lot of time studying and working, and I haven't had any things come up during the evening. Since I'm in school, my rhythm gets messed up easily regardless.
Another productivity hack, I use LeechBlock during the day so I limit my Internet breaks. I find myself compulsively visiting distracting websites. There's self-control, but why not delegate it to the browser.
I have only been doing it for a week and continue to keep it up for at least the next week. I think I plan on tweaking it towards something slightly more normal, like 8pm-4am.
I was also thinking it might be difficult to keep up a 5pm sleep time during the summer months when the sun sets later. But if you had a sound-proof bedroom that was pitch dark (some crazy shades that blocked all light), then I would imagine that would help a lot.
An 8pm-4am sleep time sounds more manageable... although the 5pm-midnight sleep schedule is such a talking point. :)
You've only been doing it a week... going to bed at 5pm when it is sunset is well and good in February. Come summer time trying to tell your body to sleep when the Sun is high in the sky might be a big problem. Certainly not impossible but it might not feel so great for you. I fell into a very natural (seeming) sleep pattern from 8am - 3pm which worked for me at the time. That was a lifetime ago though and it simply isn't practical for me now.
Speaking as someone who grew up in the South-East of Norway, where there's very short dark parts of the night during the summer, it is certainly harder to go to bed when it's light outside, but it is still manageable. Heat was a much bigger issue for me in terms of getting sleep. Dark blinds, and a strict bedtime ritual to calm down and prepare for sleep helps. you get used to it. Up North there are substantial parts (though sparsely populated) of Norway where it doesn't get dark during the night in summer and people still manage.
I mention that I do not plan on keeping this schedule up for a few weeks or couple months. My schedule is working for me for now, but one day it will soon also become impractical.
At work I'm known for having a weird sleep schedule (usually 18:00-02:00, though circumstance can push that out occasionally). I've similarly found that my days tend to be more relaxing and more productive since adopting this schedule. I suspect that the value of this schedule is inversely proportionate to the number of those who adopt it.
My most productive period was when I was waking up at 8pm, grabbing dinner and drinks with friends from 9pm to midnight (I would drink water), hacking at the lab from 12:30am to 8:30am, run errands from 8:30 to 10 and then sleep from 10am to 8pm.
This worked pretty well for me in my final year of school when the only time the lab was open for our project was midnight to 8am. Weird having an end of the day beer at 10:30 in the morning though :)
I did this same thing for the exams of my last year only.
Had I known before ....
Here's the pattern :
while exams{
0. Study
1. Go to the exam
2. succeed
3. Come back, get fresh a go to sleep
[... idle ... forget everything ... reboot ...]
4. Wake up, get fresh & back to 0. for next exam
}
Here's some advantages :
- when you wake up you actually have plenty of time till the exam
- you don't have to calculate how much sleep you will get or when to squeeze it
- your going to arrive fresh at the exam and not fall asleep on your sheet-keyboard
I switch to this pretty much every exam period, mostly because I hate doing anything when I've only just woken up, nevermind take an exam.
The rest of the year however, there are far too many things to do between 5pm-1am that make this viable. Instead I flip it and go for the 5am-1pm which I think works well as a University student.
I'm uncertain of why anybody would do this to their life.
You lay out some advantages:
1) The rest of the internet is "asleep", there's not much content being generated and so you are less distracted.
2) You get the gym to yourself.
3) No alarm clock
Admittedly, all three are good things. But, I'm uncertain if it's a good trade off. I mean, I'd go crazy if I did what you do on a daily basis. For one, going to sleep at 5pm would completely cut me off from any after-work/school social aspect of my life. It just seems silly to do that just for the ability to make it easier for yourself to work at night. I for one, find it much better to just not mess around on HN/Facebook all day and just do what I have to do (use SelfControl). Just do it. My gym is very empty early, at about 8am, infact thinging about it now, your sleep timetable doesn't help you have an empty gym. Most people get up that early anyway for work.
I just don't get why you need to change your sleeping habits to something so backward that cuts you off from so many of the social aspects of life that aren't mingled in with work/school.
Not having to use an alarm clock, though, is good.
This happens because there are time zones that are significantly more active than others on the parts of the internet one tends to use. Sure, there's content being uploaded when it's 10:00 in Japan or China, but except for what's coming from Australia (not really much), I'm unlikely to be browsing any of that.
For the very productive, I think there's a tendency to think oneself exempt from the rules of sleep. But only for "a small group of people—perhaps just 1% to 3% of the population" is sleep a waste of time according to researchers.
Everything here revolves around the sun, literally. If you're depriving yourself of the natural energy you naturally attempt to get I can only imagine you'll have to turn to artificial energy eventually (a lot of it). Just seems too unnatural to me to fight what your body was made to do.
While many comments bring up the anti-social aspects, I think it interesting to use the thread to think about one of the biggest, and often overlooked personal productivity attributes: making sure that your body gets a good dose of sleep every day.
Good sleep means better cognitive behavior, less accidents, lower bodyfat, lower inflammation, and many other benefits.
Sleep has a long list of very positive effects, and I might suggest reading Coren's "The Sleep Thieves" to get a full idea of this.
One of the central cores of getting a good night's sleep is "sleep hygiene," which includes having a regular schedule. In other words, get to a schedule and stick to it. Also, exposure to light seems to keep the schedule synced.
As many have written, 5pm hardly seems to be reinforcing of the above points.
I experimented with this exact sleep schedule when I went from working entirely remotely for 8 years to working in an office for a year and a half. I found that physically going to an office would exhaust me anyway to the point that I couldn't accomplish much after coming home, so this schedule was great for optimizing the time where I'd be most productive anyway, and putting me to sleep when I'd otherwise be useless anyway.
I'm introverted enough that the social interaction I had at the office was sufficient for the day, so I wouldn't be going out afterwards anyway. I'm also a night-owl and find myself much more productive at night.
For a long time, I used to have a "night owl" schedule and I thought I was very productive until I switched to 12am-5:30am sleep schedule. I sleep at most 1-1:30am, but if I ever stay awake past 2:30am, I don't go to sleep anynmore. I also take a 15 minute nap during the day at about 3pm, after which if I would be very refreshed for the rest of the day.
I think the early-to-rise sleep pattern is very productive and best even for some people that consider themselves night owls now. Most times, a lot of people think they are night owls from their late night sleep schedule from their teenage years. There are some exceptions, however.
The best part i like about your schedule is resting immediately after a full days work. This gap (of rest) between your work day and the time you aside for yourself to do some parttime learning/work is very appealing.
I came up with the same idea a while ago, except I would fit dinner in either after work/before bed or after waking up/before the day job. I never got to try it out though, because when you live with others who are on a regular sleep schedule, there will be plenty of conflicts.
I'm still itching to try this if/when I ever get my own place. It's basically a normal day with the sleep and personal time portions swapped. It's easy to come up with the idea since it's the only flexibility possible when your work time is non-adjustable.
I've noticed the same kind of distraction-free productivity in the wee hours and thought about starting my day at midnight, but usually I have a hard time taking my hands off whatever task is on hand. Consequently, I am usually a night owl who wakes up nearly at noon (I'm a student, as well), and when I actually need to be somewhere in the morning, I power through with a few bags of black tea.
I admit the 5pm bedtime schedule is a lot healthier and syncs with the 9-to-5 work schedule nicely, though.
I've done this once and I think it's a pretty good idea especially if you work a 9 to 5 and are moonlighting. The most productive hours of the day (the hours that you have the most energy because you just woke up) are yours and then the hours that you are more tired are for your 9 to 5.
This was my schedule too, but it kept shifting 1 hour forward until it circled back to a normal 10pm-6am schedule, though my partner did appreciate not having to listen to my laptop's abnormally loud mouse button's clicking sound all night.
Dec-Feb is the only time that the sun sets at 5pm. I think this schedule would be next to impossible for me Mar-Nov when it is still light out well past 5pm. The lack of social interaction would make it terroibly hard Dec-Feb.
Yes, it can be. But with school and work, I have the same amount of social time as I did before. It is not too bad as much of my social network are classmates and coworkers.
I have been doing it for a week so far, but I expect on dropping it once I graduate and once time frees up.
I would have to agree. Most of my social activities are with my classmates and coworkers, all between 10am-5pm. I code better after a good nights rest. Totally going to give this a shot.
Sleeping from 5-midnight is taking the "early to bed, early to rise" thing a little too seriously. Napoleon woke at 4am each morning to get the jump on everyone else, but that didn't help him in the end.
I think that the most natural thing is to (1) sleep when it gets dark and wake when it's light, and (2) not live to close to the parts of the world where that doesn't work because of the length of days and nights.
Now I wake around 3-4 am and get the same night time serenity. But the perception of this patten is different. I'm considered an early riser - disciplined and driven.
I've noticed my concentration is much better under the new early rising regime.
Here's my schedule:
- 4 am. Wake up. Depending on my mood and deadlines I'll either jump straight into work or take some leisure time surfing the web.
- 5 am. Dog wakes up and makes it clear that we're going for a walk. So we go to the park and play. The park is empty at this early hour so its good for training.
- 7am. If I havent done so already I start work to coincide with my team on the other side of the country.
- 3pm. Start winding down. Have a beer.
- 5pm. Parter comes home from work and we go to the park with the dog. Lots of dogs at this time and its great fun for all.
- 7pm. Dinner.
- 8pm. Bed.
- 4am. Wake.
Does my social life suffer? Well i've found that its a case of diminishing returns. I used to be the guy who partied until 3am. Now I party until 10pm. And I've discovered I'm having just as much fun. It would seem socialising is a case of diminishing returns for me. I also avoid the shattering hangover.