I know I may get some flack for this. But IMO, you shouldn't make waves when you are a VISA guest in another country. It's just a bad idea all around. There's every reason to actively avoid getting politically involved. While I realize that US higher education is particularly motivated towards activism, protests and the like. Historically accepting even foreign nationals in such activity. It's still just a bad idea for non-citizens in any country to do so.
I do think a lot of grant funding will cycle back around. There's every reason for commercial sourcing to become a larger portion of university funding as well as university funding directly from endowments considering the profit motivations in both cases. I think it's far from dead, just changing.
1) Why would companies pay for basic research? They used to get that research for free.
2) Very few schools have endowments that are large enough to support current faculty research costs; even Harvard can only support all research off their endowment for about a year.
3) Endowments are now taxed, so they will have even less available for research.
1) Because ROI on that investment is still positive, even if it used to be “free”.
2) Endowments aren’t the only way to fund research, and not all research is equally valuable. Some is probably negative value, given the replication crisis.
3) Investment income from the endowment is taxed at a maximum of 8%. If that’s enough to break the US university research machine, I’m not sure it was ever working in the first place.
The ROI is not positive because there is no guarantee basic science will lead to any money-making outcome. That's not how basic science works and it is never how it worked, but basic science is absolutely crucial for advancing tech. If you can convince shareholders that it is e.g. worth investigating unusual crystal structures with no intended product in mind then people will gladly share some grants with you to edit so you can work some of that magic. It's just not feasible, no company would pay for that, but sometimes it leads to important discoveries that change the game.
And I only mentioned endowments because the parent of my comment did, but again, the important point is that endowments are not intended to entirely fund the research machine, and never will.
On the frontiers of knowledge, people furthest out know what problems need to be worked on and what research needs to be done. You don’t need the government blindly throwing darts at the wall hoping that one of them hits a bullseye and calling it “basic science”.
I’m open to the idea that government can play a role here, but only in a very small way. The government is spending hundreds of billions of dollars on research. They are such a huge consumer of talent and resources that they are crowding out private initiative. This ain’t Bell Labs of the 1950’s. And if you asked those researchers what they think of today’s system, I’m sure they’d be appalled.
Look, I'm going to be honest -- your comment here tells me you have very little knowledge of how scientific funding, or even the scientific process in general, actually works. Would you like information on what is actually going on? I'd be happy to explain it.
I love it when people use the phrase, “I’m going to be honest,” because it implies that previously you were lying but are now choosing not to. But given that you haven’t explained anything as you happily promised, I’m going to assume you’re not just a liar but also ignorant of how scientific funding, or the scientific method in general, actually works.
The cumulative ROI for basic research is positive, but I don't think that is true for many individual research efforts, which is what a company is more likely to support. An individual company seems much less likely to benefit enough from an aggregate pool of research that they will actually contribute. Look at the state of open source software with respect to company investment in maintainers.
Endowment funds are not a checking account, they are not just cash on hand for universities to spend as they please. They could certainly liquidate, but then each year their disbursement would get lower. There is no situation where they could continue operating as they do now.
See my other comment on the likelihood that any corporation would want to pay for basic science. When would any company choose to fund something that would not guarantee a return on investment? It goes against the nature of the goals of a corporation. I would love to know of for-profit examples of this. I'm sure there are a few, but I doubt there are many.
Also, most endowment funds are restricted by the donor. The whole point of making a donation to an endowment is to fund a specific thing in perpetuity. Legally, the university can't just take money that was given to them to fund one thing in perpetuity and use that money to fund a completely different thing as a one-time expense.
I don't think everyone that got their funding pulled made waves. Terrance Tao for example had funding pulled simply for being associated with the wrong school.
I'm not saying they did... I'm simply commenting on the chilling effects portion of the post I replied to. In that becoming politically involved in a foreign nation on a temporary visa is just a bad idea. It really shouldn't be a controversial opinion.
There are a LOT of countries that have much harsher penalties for speaking out than having one's visa revoked. For that matter, I'm not endorsing one opinion or another on any given topic here, only pointing out that it's a bad idea.
That absolutely is a controversial opinion. The prohibition against government reprisal for speech acts is the first thing in the Bill of Rights! That’s one of the genuinely exceptional things about the U.S., or at least it was until we broke it.
A lot of privileges/rights are limited to citizens in the US in different ways. Why would any government welcome a subversive, foreign influence? Should it be any surprise that the result is similar to what happens when a spy is caught?
The first amendment is NOT limited to citizens in the US. It just isn't. Why would it be? Free speech, free press, and freedom of religion applies to everybody.
And what happens to spies caught in the US? Again, why would you expect something significantly different for a subversive foreign adversary in the nation on a Visa?
"Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences."
And you didn't answer the question I asked more than once. Why would you expect a significantly different result for a subversive foreign influence on a Visa vs an otherwise disclosed spy? There are plenty of limitations to Visa holders.
- Relevant Provision: This section lists grounds for inadmissibility, including engaging in activities that threaten U.S. national security, such as espionage, terrorism, or other unlawful activities. Speech that is deemed to support or advocate for terrorism or terrorist organizations (e.g., material support under 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(3)(B)) can lead to visa revocation or inadmissibility.
- Impact on Visa Holders: If a visa holder's speech is interpreted as supporting terrorist activities or organizations designated by the U.S. government, they could face deportation or visa denial. For example, publicly expressing support for a designated terrorist group, even in a non-violent context, could trigger scrutiny.
2. Visa Conditions and Status Restrictions:
- Specific Visa Program Rules: Certain visas, like the H-1B, F-1 (student), or J-1 (exchange visitor), come with conditions that indirectly limit speech-related activities. For instance, visa holders must comply with the terms of their visa, such as maintaining employment or enrollment status. Engaging in public speech or activities (e.g., protests or political organizing) that interfere with these conditions could jeopardize their status.
- Example: An F-1 student who engages in unauthorized employment (e.g., paid speaking engagements) or participates in activities that lead to arrest (e.g., during a protest) risks violating their visa terms, which could lead to removal proceedings under 8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(1)(C)(i) (failure to maintain nonimmigrant status).
3. Espionage and Sedition Laws - 18 U.S.C. § 793–798:
- Relevant Provision: These sections of the U.S. Code criminalize activities like disclosing classified information, espionage, or advocating for the overthrow of the U.S. government. While these laws apply to everyone, visa holders face heightened consequences because violations can lead to both criminal penalties and immigration consequences, such as deportation under INA § 237(a)(4) (engaging in activities that endanger public safety or national security).
- Impact on Visa Holders: Speech involving the disclosure of sensitive information or advocating for illegal activities could trigger these provisions, leading to visa revocation or criminal charges.
4. Hate Speech and Incitement - Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) and 18 U.S.C. § 2383–2385:
- Legal Standard: The First Amendment allows broad free speech protections, but speech that incites imminent lawless action and is likely to produce such action (per Brandenburg v. Ohio) is not protected. Additionally, federal laws criminalize seditious conspiracy or advocating the overthrow of the government.
- Impact on Visa Holders: Visa holders engaging in speech that crosses into incitement or sedition could face criminal charges and immigration consequences, including deportation. For example, inflammatory speech at a public event that leads to violence could trigger scrutiny under these laws.
5. Public Charge and Moral Turpitude Grounds - 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(2) and § 1227(a)(2):
- Relevant Provision: Visa holders convicted of crimes involving moral turpitude (CIMT) can be deemed inadmissible or deportable. Certain speech-related activities, such as fraud, defamation, or perjury, could be classified as CIMTs if they result in a criminal conviction.
- Impact on Visa Holders: Engaging in speech that leads to a CIMT conviction (e.g., making false statements in a public context that result in legal action) could jeopardize visa status.
6. Export Control Laws - International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR):
- Relevant Provision: These regulations, administered by the Departments of State and Commerce, restrict the dissemination of certain technical data or information to foreign nationals, including visa holders. Speech involving the sharing of controlled technical information (e.g., in academic or professional settings) could violate these laws.
- Impact on Visa Holders: Visa holders in technical fields (e.g., H-1B workers in engineering) must ensure their speech or presentations do not disclose ITAR- or EAR-controlled information without authorization, as violations could lead to penalties and immigration consequences.
7. Social Media and Public Statements Scrutiny:
- Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Policies: U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) may review visa holders’ social media activity as part of visa adjudications or entry screenings (per DHS policies implemented around 2019–2020). Speech on platforms like X that is deemed to conflict with U.S. laws or visa conditions (e.g., expressing intent to violate visa terms) could lead to visa denial or revocation.
- Example: Posts advocating illegal activities or expressing intent to overstay a visa could trigger adverse immigration actions.
I have no idea what that mass of text is a quote from, since you didn't say. I suspect it's all bullshit. Really it doesn't matter. This stuff is in the courts now, and I expect they will find it unconstitutional, as they should.
The Visa application, process and requirements themselves limit activities to persons in the US on a Visa. In particular, it limits subversive activities as well as speaking and/or acting out against US policies.
The “activism” angle is a red herring — they’re screwing with all foreign students now, regardless of what they do. And honestly, activism is one of the things that made the US stand apart — or used to.
The US government, while far from perfect, was once seen as a neutral partner in research — a place where scientists from everywhere could coordinate, mix, and build. It cost us relatively little compared to what we gained, and that leadership was admired both domestically and globally. It wasn’t perfect, but it was pretty damn good — and now it’s being killed.
As mentioned in other threads... Visa holders are prohibited from working against, subverting, or otherwise advocating for the overthrow of US Govt or against standing policies.
Why would you expect a significantly different result for a subversive foreign influence on a Visa vs an otherwise disclosed spy?
Corporations were funding scientific innovation indirectly through corporate taxes and they fought with every fiber of their being to cut those taxes because they didn't want to pay for it.
If you think they will suddenly have a change of heart and start funding scientific discovery not just indirectly, but directly, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Basically what you're saying is that a Pharma company is going to invest in research that may not pay off for decades, if ever. GLP-1 drugs are based on research that started in the early 80s. mRNA vaccines are based on research from the late 80s and 90s. Very few companies are interested in funding highly-speculative work where they won't see a return for 30 or 40 years - and probably will never see a return at all.
It also creates a really serious problem - if companies are funding the basic science, then they are going to want to own what they're funding. But collaboration and shared knowledge is exactly what pushes science forward.
And we know companies certainly do what's best for their long-term growth and survival, rather than prioritizing short-term profits. We certainly don't need to worry about innovation grinding to a halt, and scientists leaving the field, while companies figure out the new normal.
What the heck? In the US, free speech is guaranteed in the constitution. Of course people can make waves! The idea that people should just go along with things and not make their voices heard is completely unamerican.
I do think a lot of grant funding will cycle back around. There's every reason for commercial sourcing to become a larger portion of university funding as well as university funding directly from endowments considering the profit motivations in both cases. I think it's far from dead, just changing.