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> According to Anthropic’s commercial terms of service, customers are barred from using the service to “build a competing product or service, including to train competing AI models”

That's... quite a license term. I'm a big fan of tools that come with no restrictions on their use in their licenses. I think I'll stick with them.





For years it was a license violation to use Microsoft development tools to build a word processor or spreadsheet. It was also a violation of your Oracle license to publish benchmark results comparing Oracle to other databases.

If you compete with a vendor, or give aid and comfort to their competitors, do not expect the vendor to play nice with you, or even keep you on as a customer.


>For years it was a license violation to use Microsoft development tools to build a word processor or spreadsheet.

source?


You have to go pretty far back, it was in the Visual C++ 6.0 EULA, for instance (for lack of a better link):

https://proact.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Visual-Basic-En...

It wasn't a blanket prohibition, but a restriction on some parts of the documentation and redistributable components. Definitely was weird to see that in the EULA for a toolchain. This was removed later on, though I forget if it's because they changed their mind or removed the components.


Doesn’t the ban on benchmarking Oracle still stand today?

Given the law firm in question which just happens to develop an RDBMS, I wouldn't want to find out

Besides, lol, who cares how fast a model-T can go when there are much nicer forms of transportation that don't actively hate you


Hmm so "because you split spending between us and a competitor, we'll force you to give the competitor the whole share instead!"

Certainly a mindset befitting microsoft and Oracle, if I ever saw one.


I can understand the benchmark issue. It often happens when someone benchmarks something, it’s biased or wrong in some way.

I don’t believe it should be legal, but I see why they would be butt-hurt


These anti-competitive clauses are becoming standard across all major AI providers - Google, Microsoft, and Meta have similar terms. The industry is converging on a licensing model that essentially creates walled gardens for model development.

You guys are tripping. EULAs have had anti-competition, anti-benchmarking, anti-reverse engineering and anti-disparagement clauses since the late 90s.

These unknown companies called Microsoft, Oracle, Salesforce, Apple, Adobe, … et al have all had these controversies at various points.


Yeah, if I remember correctly iTunes had a clause it couldn’t be used for nuclear development.

Not sure what Apple lawyers were imagining but I guess barring Irani scientist from syncing their iPods with uranium refiner schematics set back their programme for decades.


I think Apple had it in all their software. It's a good stance and easy to ridicule by taking iTunes as an example.

> and easy to ridicule by taking iTunes as an example.

Not just easy, but fun too!


It's not their decision, it's US law.

That is hilarious if true.

Blame ITAR.

Glad to live in a sane jurisdiction, where provisions made available only after purchase and those that go against typical customer expectations are simply invalid, so I never had to care about EULAs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_license_agreement#Eur...


I am not a fan of Apple or Oracle, but you are not contractually prevented from competing with them if you use Macs or Oracle Cloud to build software.

I wouldn't suggest building on Oracle's property as you drink its milkshake, but the ToS and EULAs don't restrict competition.


Oracle licenses 100% restrict reverse engineering it's product to build a competing once, which is probably the closest to what these AI giants are trying to restrict.

IMO the closest analogy would be using JetBrains IDEs and being contractually obligated to not develop competing IDEs.

The ToS are not just about "reverse engineering" a competing model, they forbid using the service to develop competing systems at all.


Oracle db products are not meant to build databases, unlike LLM code generator which are meant to build any kind of software, so the restriction sounds a bit different.

Imagine if Oracle was adding a restrictions on what you are allowed to build with Java, that would be a more similar comparison IMO.


Yeah but did you know you also can't publish benchmarks?

E.x. if you make a product that works on multiple databases, you can't show the performance difference between them.


That's just because they can't beat sqlite and they're too embarrassed by it.

You can you just have to ask. And that's not an oracle thing. All the commercial databases have that rule. It's too easy to make misleading benchmarks for such complicated products so that's why they do it.

"Everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it right.

It also makes it dangerous to become dependent on these services. What if at some point in the future, your provider decides that something you make competes with something they make, and they cut off your access?


When that provider's ToS allows them full access to the inputs/outputs you're sending through their system, there is a strong incentive to build something competitive with you once you're proven profitable enough.

I don't know how companies currently navigate that.


Does this mean you can’t make a potential competitor to Claude Code using Claude Code, though?

Well, Open AI had been whining about DeepSeek back in the day, so it is fair in a way.

Also Twitter TOS when accessing firehose was that you could not recreate a Twitter client.

Same with Discord, for example. In fact, in another instance, my account got disabled for having used it for bots.

Oh I wonder if that applies to me? I've been using claude to do experiments with using SNN's for language models. Doubt anything will come of it... has mostly just been a fun learning experience, but it is technically a "competing product" (one that doesn't work yet)

If you release it, it will be a competing product, experiments are just research.

But he’s building it right now, and the building part is what’s illegal. It’s a very gray area.

You definitely forgot the scare quotes around "illegal".

You're correct. Illegal was the wrong term; a potential violation of their ToS would have been a better choice of words.

Can't we say it's "fair use"? They do whatever they want saying it's "fair use", I don't see why I couldn't.

Exactly this. Strange that this comment got downwoted. AI companies are scrapping the entire internet disregarding copyright and pirating books. Without it, models will be useless.

Ah, yes, just like a good robots.txt do-not-use-me-to-train-your-ai term of service that the LLM companies adhere to strictly?

Dumbest thing they could do, why would you cut off insight into what your competitors are doing?

Because they don't blatantly read people's prompts. They have a confidential inference architecture.

They don't target and analyze specific user or organizations - that would be fairly nefarious.

The only exception would be if there are flags for trust and safety. https://support.anthropic.com/en/articles/8325621-i-would-li...


Would something like that hold up in court?

they can choose who they do & don't want to do business with

But who's going to enforce this for them? And would they even find out if the service is otherwise available to the general public?

Law does not work like that.

- Contracts can have unenforceable terms that can be declared null and void by a court, any decision not to renew the contract in future would have no bearing on the current one.

- there are plenty of restrictions on when/ whether you can turn down business for example FRAND contracts or patents don’t allow you choose to not work with a competitor and so on.


People always say "this wouldn't hold up in court" and "the law doesn't work like that" when it comes to contract, but in reality, contracts can mostly contain whatever you want.

I see no reason why Anthropic can't arbitrarily ban OpenAI, regardless of my opinion on the decision. Anthropic hasn't "patented" access to the Claude API; there are no antitrust concerns that I can see; etc.


IMO its all well and good for Anthropic to adhere and or justify a ban under it’s TOS. It’s been super annoying when (myself and others) have been arbitrarily banned with very little communication on how to remedy or adhere to ToS for what feels like it’s intended purpose?

The biggest lesson I learnt from my law degree is that sure you might be legally entitled to it - but you can still be receiving a raw deal and have very little in the way of remedial action.


Nobody was asking if Anthropic can ban OpenAI. I believe they were asking if the contract that can ban using the output to train an AI would hold up in court.

And no, it isn't clear to me that this contract term would hold up in court as Anthopic doesn't have copyright ownership in the AI output. I don't believe you can enforce copyright related contracts without copyright ownership.

I could be wrong of course, but I find it odd this topic comes up from time to time but apparently nobody has a blog post by a lawyer or similar to share on this issue.


> And no, it isn't clear to me that this contract term would hold up in court as Anthopic doesn't have copyright ownership in the AI output

They don't need copyright ownership of the AI output to make part of the the conditions for using their software running on their servers (API access) an agreement not to use it training a competing AI model.

There would have to be a law prohibiting that term, either in general or for a company in the specific circumstances Anthropic is in. (The “specific circumstances” thing is seen, e.g., when a term is otherwise permitted but used but a firm that is also a monopoly in a relevant market as a way of either defending or leveraging that monopoly, and thus it becomes illegal in that specific case.)


"They don't need copyright ownership of the AI output to make part of the conditions for using their software running on their servers (API access) an agreement not to use it training a competing AI model."

You are missing the point.

Copyright law and the copyright act, not general contract law, governs whether a contract provision relating to AI output can be enforced by Anthropic, and since copyright law says Anthropic has no copyright in the output, Anthropic will not win in court.

It's not different than if Anthropic included a provision saying you won't print out the text of Moby Dick. Anthropic doesn't own copyright on Moby Dick and can't enforce a contract provision related to it.

Like I said I can be convinced I'm wrong based on a legal analysis from a neutral party but you seem to be arguing from first principles.


> You are missing the point.

No, I am disagreeing with the point, because it's completely wrong.

> Copyright law and the copyright act, not general contract law, governs whether a contract provision relating to AI output can be enforced by Anthropic

No, it doesn't. There is no provision of copyright law that limits terms of contracts covering AI outputs.

> It's not different than if Anthropic included a provision saying you won't print out the text of Moby Dick.

This is true, but undermines your point.

> Anthropic doesn't own copyright on Moby Dick and can't enforce a contract provision related to it.

Actually, providing services that allow you to produce output can enforce provisions prohibiting reproducing works they don't own the copyright to (and frequently do adopt and enforce rules prohibiting this for things other people own the copyright to).

> Like I said I can be convinced I'm wrong based on a legal analysis from a neutral party but you seem to be arguing from first principles.

You seem to be arguing from first principles that are entirely unrelated to the actual principles, statutory content of, or case law of contracts or copyrights, and I have no idea where they come from, but, sure, believe whatever you want, it doesn't cost me anything.


Replying again to say this article appears to directly address similar cases:

https://perkinscoie.com/insights/blog/does-copyright-law-pre...

It seems courts are split:

"In jurisdictions that follow the Second Circuit's more restrictive approach, plaintiffs may be limited to bringing copyright infringement claims when the scope of license terms or other contractual restrictions on the use of works has been exceeded. Plaintiffs who do not own or control the copyright interest in the licensed work, however, will not be able to bring such claims and may be left without an enforcement mechanism under traditional contracting approaches."


>>There is no provision of copyright law that limits terms of contracts covering AI outputs.

This isn't how legal reasoning works in a common law system... to discover the answer you usually find the most similar case to the current fact pattern and then compare it to the current issue.

If you are aware of such a case, even colluqually, point me in the right direction. It might be hard to analogize to another cases though, because Anthropic doesn't have a license for most of the training materials that made their model. I've also read you can't contract around a fair use defense.

If I'm wrong it isn't very helpful to shout "na uh" without further explanation. Give me some search engine keywords and I'll look up whatever you point me towards.


Good luck with that! Most of the relevant model providers include similar terms (Grok, OpenAI, Anthropic, Mistal, basically everyone with the exception of some open model providers).

You're like 50% of the way there...



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