We often like to diminish things like nicotine and alcohol, but they are also psychoactive drugs even if they are far more natural and have a far longer history with humans in general, but also among respective subgroups/subspecies of humans specifically.
For those who were not aware, alcohol is a substance that Europeans and Asians have evolved with over about 8 millennia and the American tribes evolved with tobacco for about 12 millennia. Considering other factors like how up until very recently evolutionary pressures had far greater and more acute effects on the gene pool, it should really not surprise anyone that certain effects of tobacco and alcohol may be far less apparent than something like LSD, MDMA, cocaine, heroine, and even marijuana that has had far less evolutionary pressure/impact on humanity. Simply put, at best, it seems humans or our subgroups/subspecies have not sufficiently evolved to adapt to the uses of those newer substances over time, if that is even possible (i.e., at what level is self-poisoning by several different means simply too overwhelming and not adapted to, but rather becomes an evolutionary terminus?).
It would be rather interesting to me to see research on something like drug induced mental health related issues that compares teetotaling type groups like the Amish and Mormons/LDS to the general public and individual drug user cohorts. If anyone is aware of something along that line, I would appreciate a pointer in that direction beyond what I can search/AI.
I am someone that does not do any illegal drugs, and minimal legal drugs like caffeine and alcohol, but I see the effects of them all on people around me and am even supporting a friend that is trying to pull away from marijuana use. My observation over many years and many different experiences around the world with different groups is rather clear that there is definitely some kind of interaction between drug use and various mental disorders; mental disorders which we also similarly mitigate like how caffeine is mitigated or even negated as a drug at all.
We should really be asking ourselves why the western world in particular is so fixated on self-harming with drugs; be it caffeine or meth. And no, please spare us all your justifications for how caffeine is fine or micro-dosing has been amazing, because they are simply varying levels of rationalization, I do it too, I’m just not in it as deeply. And no, just because you were able to become rich with and on the back of drugs does not mean you did it without harm, you likely just scandalized a lot of harm to, e.g., get rich selling some service to some coke head investor who will only fuel the abuse of data mining and social media addiction.
I see all the drug users around me make excuses for why their drug is fine (“it’s just caffeine”) and they are in control. It’s never true though, even when I use caffeine at times or tell myself I can be socially acceptable by also having a beer/glass of wine and it has an enormous effects on me because my body and mind are not used to dealing with the drug in a regular basis; it is really just coping and rationalization. In simply just willing to admit it to myself.
Frankly, I sometimes think that especially the western world is rather terrified with facing the reality of how damaged we are due to and from drug use, so we effectively just suppress even investigating it sufficiently even as it is burning right through our whole civilization in too many ways to list right now.
Caffeine, alcohol, marijuana. LSD, heroine, cocaine, crack, MDMA, meth, and all the other things I’m not even aware of; are all substances that effectively cause the brain to intentionally short circuit and run corrupted scripts in their minds, sometimes overlocking and wearing out things, other times scrambling data. We then though convince ourselves that the poison/toxin taken, was really a beneficial substance and the mind going haywire for a certain time was a good thing.
> And no, please spare us all your justifications for how caffeine is fine or micro-dosing has been amazing, because they are simply varying levels of rationalization, I do it too, I’m just not in it as deeply. And no, just because you were able to become rich with and on the back of drugs does not mean you did it without harm, you likely just scandalized a lot of harm to, e.g., get rich selling some service to some coke head investor who will only fuel the abuse of data mining and social media addiction.
I think you make some interesting points, and it's a very well thought-out post, but this is the definition of "poisoning the well". You're attempting to preemptively discredit the most obvious flaw in your argument.
There is a massive amount of evidence for the impact on both society, economy and neurology for each of the drugs listed in your last paragraph – and it's these impacts that often change personal and societal perception of risk and reward. Caffeine, at average doses, induces an effect that is comparable to a small cortisol spike – it is mildly addictive, but nowhere near that of an opioid, for example.
Drugs like meth and heroine (and one wonders why you left off fentanyl) are highly addictive and destructive, cause enormous loss of life an an inconceivable scale, and can permanently damage neurological pathways. From what I've read, the impact of hallucinogenics is less well understood... but probably not great.
If your argument is "we like to say caffeine and alcohol are fine, when they're really no different than opioids and meth", well there _is_ a staggeringly enormous difference in the potency and impact of caffeine vs the other drugs you've listed. I do agree with you that alcohol is far more harmful than society cares to admit, however, and that's both well-studied and often ignored.
I hate to write out these words, but you're strawmanning.
The point is caffeine etc. corrupt the mind and cause a person's mental faculties to run in a way they were not initially designed to.
The point is not that these drugs are all extremely harmful, only that they are all harmful. Caffeine and other things get a pass because the "hard drugs" are so uniquely and visibly harmful that they overshadow all other forms of harm.
One could even say that this has tricked us into thinking that lesser drugs like caffeine or canabinoids are "effectively harmless" because they're not causing us to OD or steal things to get another hit or causing visibly psychotic states. But that is not true. We've simply accepted that the harm they due is not worth thinking about (this is subjective, not objective).
The use of the term "corrupt" rather than "alter" or "affect" is assuming the conclusion here. The human mind is not something that always works in the same Platonic perfection in a state of nature. Biological and cultural differences are major factors in what is considered normal at any given place and time.
Some people have conditions that make the way their brains work different than what is considered normal. Western technological culture imposes differences in social interaction and pressures on thinking and required performance that are far different than existed in societies even mere hundreds of years before.
Drugs can be a way to compensate for these pressures and find a way to exist in the world with as much equanimity as possible. And I say all this as a person who avoids all caffeine and illegal drugs, and uses alcohol very infrequently. I'm lucky I can do this and thrive in today's Western culture. Not everyone is as fortunate.
A small percentage of people, like myself, have clearly autosomal genetic conditions that means being 'normal' is just not on the cards. I have to take psychopharmacological drugs just to get close to normal.
Not everyone is the same, there is a lot of variety, what you say could indeed be true for most people but can also not be true for a small minority of people.
hEDS, there is a very long list of comorbidities and I tick off most of them. Not guessing, runs in the family, did a WGS and found the TNXB SNPs responsible.
I tried the no-drugs and being super healthy approach for the vast majority of my life, I look like a pro-athlete, the only reason I started the meds was due to figuring out the statistical possibility of having X things wrong with me was next to impossible without a common cause, and the ME/CFS with brain fog was destroying my life.
I also tried to quit caffeine but that only resulted in very negative effects that persisted for more than 4 months after going cold turkey, that's 4 months being largely housebound and not able to work for that one experiment. I've been at this so long that if you can think of something I've probably tried it - including the healthiest of healthy lifestyles.
Just comparing within my own family most are anti-drugs and anti-medications and their health is an absolute mess. I wish living a healthy lifestyle would be sufficient, I wouldn't have to walk a tightrope of balancing meds, but I don't get that option.
What are your thoughts on people who self-medicate with caffeine due to their baseline ability to focus being reduced (which in modern society is cause for trouble)? That’s the reason for starting caffeine use for many.
My use is also light and fully legal, but personally I’m not sure that this is something that’s so binary. It seems more likely to sit on a spectrum, as most things do, and is largely dependent on the individual due to wide differences in brain and body function. It’s the same reason why the prescription drug that works wonders for one person and do nothing or worse, be detrimental for somebody else. We’re not all identical units of a particular model rolling off an assembly line somewhere, after all.
So I guess I would say that yes, we should be more conscientious of how substances (even those that are common) interact with our minds, but I have a hard time labeling them all as harmful. It’s just too broad of a brush.
I think the main problem is conflation and averaging out experiences to the general population. There are distinct subsets of people who react to things very differently to the others and the focus should be on first finding out if someone is in a particular group.
I do a lot of DIY psychopharmacology, mostly modafinil and amitriptyline, in a successful effort to reduce ME/CFS/hEDS related brain fog. I’ve given modafinil to normal people and they tend not to notice any effects where for me it’s a super strong drug that’ll keep me wired unless I take other drugs to calm down.
I think quite a large subset of human behavior is seeking self medication for genetic anxiety disorders and I think in knowing the mechanisms people can avoid stumbling around in the dark and go directly towards things that work.
Could there be a similar cliff function for alcohol and psychoactive drugs iff used in moderation which may confer to a society an advantage to the detriment of individual health. If used above a limit things fall of a cliff. Abstinence however may also be sub-optimal even if best for any individual.
For those who were not aware, alcohol is a substance that Europeans and Asians have evolved with over about 8 millennia and the American tribes evolved with tobacco for about 12 millennia. Considering other factors like how up until very recently evolutionary pressures had far greater and more acute effects on the gene pool, it should really not surprise anyone that certain effects of tobacco and alcohol may be far less apparent than something like LSD, MDMA, cocaine, heroine, and even marijuana that has had far less evolutionary pressure/impact on humanity. Simply put, at best, it seems humans or our subgroups/subspecies have not sufficiently evolved to adapt to the uses of those newer substances over time, if that is even possible (i.e., at what level is self-poisoning by several different means simply too overwhelming and not adapted to, but rather becomes an evolutionary terminus?).
It would be rather interesting to me to see research on something like drug induced mental health related issues that compares teetotaling type groups like the Amish and Mormons/LDS to the general public and individual drug user cohorts. If anyone is aware of something along that line, I would appreciate a pointer in that direction beyond what I can search/AI.
I am someone that does not do any illegal drugs, and minimal legal drugs like caffeine and alcohol, but I see the effects of them all on people around me and am even supporting a friend that is trying to pull away from marijuana use. My observation over many years and many different experiences around the world with different groups is rather clear that there is definitely some kind of interaction between drug use and various mental disorders; mental disorders which we also similarly mitigate like how caffeine is mitigated or even negated as a drug at all.
We should really be asking ourselves why the western world in particular is so fixated on self-harming with drugs; be it caffeine or meth. And no, please spare us all your justifications for how caffeine is fine or micro-dosing has been amazing, because they are simply varying levels of rationalization, I do it too, I’m just not in it as deeply. And no, just because you were able to become rich with and on the back of drugs does not mean you did it without harm, you likely just scandalized a lot of harm to, e.g., get rich selling some service to some coke head investor who will only fuel the abuse of data mining and social media addiction.
I see all the drug users around me make excuses for why their drug is fine (“it’s just caffeine”) and they are in control. It’s never true though, even when I use caffeine at times or tell myself I can be socially acceptable by also having a beer/glass of wine and it has an enormous effects on me because my body and mind are not used to dealing with the drug in a regular basis; it is really just coping and rationalization. In simply just willing to admit it to myself.
Frankly, I sometimes think that especially the western world is rather terrified with facing the reality of how damaged we are due to and from drug use, so we effectively just suppress even investigating it sufficiently even as it is burning right through our whole civilization in too many ways to list right now.
Caffeine, alcohol, marijuana. LSD, heroine, cocaine, crack, MDMA, meth, and all the other things I’m not even aware of; are all substances that effectively cause the brain to intentionally short circuit and run corrupted scripts in their minds, sometimes overlocking and wearing out things, other times scrambling data. We then though convince ourselves that the poison/toxin taken, was really a beneficial substance and the mind going haywire for a certain time was a good thing.