> That's what ticked me off about OP's comment. Pickle in Farsi is Torshi, especially in the Farsi that Mughals spoke (central Asian dialects). Afghans still call pickles torshi and not achar.
Words shift usage all the time. Especially in multi-linguistic scenarios, adaptation of terms is very common. Also, loan words often preserve archaisms. You see this quite clearly in the use of archaic Sanskrit borrowings in languages like Tamil or Malayalam when the same word has been lost in Hindi.
> I couldn't find the etymology for achar, but I found references to classical Persian (Avestan) and Proto-Indo-Iranian. Apparently Ayurveda mentions achar, so it's possible that at some point there was a distinction between medicinal pickles and popular everyday pickles.
Please share the credible original date-attested Ayurveda text sources that unequivocally demonstrate the occurrence of that word prior to the influence of the later Persian language.
Avestan alone is insufficient evidence because despite its similarities to Sanskrit, still has many lexical differences, and the presence of a word in Avestan doesn't immediately imply it's presence in Sanskrit.
Also, The Sanskrit sources contemporary
with Avestan are in Vedic Sanskrit, which lacks that word.
Ayurveda texts are much younger, and are composed in Classical Sanskrit.
Also consider that borrowings occured even in ancient times (i.e. the word "kendra" meaning "center" is a direct borrowing from Greek into Sanskrit). Lateral transmission of vocabulary is as old as humanity.
> In either case, history of pickle in Indian subcontinent and words used to describe isn't as simple as a loan word.
I never questioned the history of the Indian food or the multitude of other words used in contemporary Indian languages. I'm only addressing the claim that the word "achaar" isn't a borrowing.
Yes, languages chage and all, but words rarely completely disappear. If achar was originally Persian, then it has completely disappeared from modern Persian, which is bizzare.
This is how you spell achar in Persian, اچار. Find me a dictionary that has an entry for this word. You'll find it in Urdu dictionaries (same spelling), but not Persian, even Afghani Persian, which is much closer to Urdu. You know why that is? It's because achar is NOT a modern Persian word. And by modern I mean last 1000 years or so. It couldn't have been a Persian loan word because there are absolutely no references to it in Persian, at least in the last 1000 years. There's no credible evidence at all to that claim. Just some blog articles and non-experts parroting the same claim with zero knowledge of Persian or even most Indian languages.
As to the real etymology. I don't know man, not easy to find. You can Google Ayurveda and achar, that's all I got. Can't find the original Ayurvedic sources either. You sound like you know some vedas and Sanskrit. Would be great if you can lookup what pickles are called in Ayurveda. In the modern lingo, Ayurvedic pickles are also called achar. And Ayurveda products usually keep their original naming. I don't know of any example where they prefer a colloquial word over an Ayurvedic word. So they calling it achar seems to me that the word predates Ayurveda.
You're right, I couldn't find references to achar in Vedic Sanskrit or Avestan. So it's probably not that old. Although, it could be that those texts didn't bother writing about everyday things like pickles. If those texts mention pickles, but use a different word than achar, then one can claim that pickle wasn't called achar.
Well there you go, so it seems there were records of the word's usage around 1820s. Nice job. I can tell you one thing though. In colloquial Persian, achar for pickle is not used. It sounds odd and usually signifies some relation with Indian style pickles
Words shift usage all the time. Especially in multi-linguistic scenarios, adaptation of terms is very common. Also, loan words often preserve archaisms. You see this quite clearly in the use of archaic Sanskrit borrowings in languages like Tamil or Malayalam when the same word has been lost in Hindi.
> I couldn't find the etymology for achar, but I found references to classical Persian (Avestan) and Proto-Indo-Iranian. Apparently Ayurveda mentions achar, so it's possible that at some point there was a distinction between medicinal pickles and popular everyday pickles.
Please share the credible original date-attested Ayurveda text sources that unequivocally demonstrate the occurrence of that word prior to the influence of the later Persian language.
Avestan alone is insufficient evidence because despite its similarities to Sanskrit, still has many lexical differences, and the presence of a word in Avestan doesn't immediately imply it's presence in Sanskrit.
Also, The Sanskrit sources contemporary with Avestan are in Vedic Sanskrit, which lacks that word.
Ayurveda texts are much younger, and are composed in Classical Sanskrit.
Also consider that borrowings occured even in ancient times (i.e. the word "kendra" meaning "center" is a direct borrowing from Greek into Sanskrit). Lateral transmission of vocabulary is as old as humanity.
> In either case, history of pickle in Indian subcontinent and words used to describe isn't as simple as a loan word.
I never questioned the history of the Indian food or the multitude of other words used in contemporary Indian languages. I'm only addressing the claim that the word "achaar" isn't a borrowing.