Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Tell HN: Eid Mubarak
815 points by asim on April 21, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 328 comments
To the Muslims on HN, Eid Mubarak! And to everyone else, Eid Mubarak!

For those who don't know. Eid is a day of celebration after the month of Ramadan, in which Muslims fasted for 30 days from sunrise to sunset with no food or water. It's something 2B people around the world celebrate to today or tomorrow (moon sighting permitted).

A note on Ramadan. To those interested in intermittent fasting, longevity, and coming back to a more human experience not drowning in technology, food and consumerism I would say check it out! After over 20 years of doing it I'm still learning something new every year, or I should say, unlearning bad habits we've created for ourselves as a society through abundance.

Hope you all have a great day!




I will add, the fasting from food and water is the easy part. The more important fast is fasting from everything that is bad -- cursing, backbiting, lying, etc -- and from your own desires. All these things are things you shouldn't do anyway, but this is a time to refresh commitment to not doing those things.

As the Quran says: "Oh, you who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that you may learn piety and righteousness" [Quran 2:183]


No smoking all day is a big deal for many Muslims in the Middle East. One year I was living in Cairo during Ramadan, and each day when it got close to the sunset call to prayer (which heralds the end of the fast), it seemed like all the cab drivers had cigarettes in hand, waiting eagerly to light up.


Oh yeah, that's a thing. And try catching a cab in Jerusalem during Ramadan. All the cab drivers are Muslim and you'd better have an alternate means of transportation.


It is a shame that it didn't lead them to stop smoking


People underappreciate how addictive nicotine is. I've been an addict for 15 years and I quit so many times, sometimes for longer than a year.

The new smoking inventions only make it worse because they allow for much much higher dosages. I've seen teens smoking what amounts to 10 packs a day worth of nicotine. And they didn't have to chain smoke for 12 hours to achieve that.


Same story here. Chantix (varenicline) somehow magically eliminated the carvings permanently (13 years and I haven't wanted nicotine again, though I still have nostalgia for the act of smoking). It has heavy side effects, still worth it.


aww that's scary. I managed to quit smoking years ago (I only smoked for less than a year anyway), then quit vaping, then used nicotine lozenges for an embarrassingly long amount of time (4+ years?) until quitting cold-turkey at the start of this year.

do you think I'll relapse? I don't usually get cravings anymore but I'm scared it'll happen.


No probably not. If you don't usually get cravings and you haven't smoked in over 4 years you're probably fine. A good check is to note how you react when you smell someone's cigarette on the street.


What new smoking inventions? Genuinely interested.


Vaping, I assume. I admit with some shame that after over a decade off cigarettes, I'm currently re-addicted to nicotine via vaping. Over the past 10 years or so, I would buy a pack of smokes every once in a while (like, maybe once a year), and enjoy smoking at a party or concert or whatever. I never had trouble stopping after a few and would usually throw the rest of the pack away, it was honestly just too inconvenient to keep up an addiction (not to mention that unless I was _really_ drinking, I would be all too keenly aware that, well, cigarettes are nasty).

Last time I was on vacation, and might have bought a pack of cigarettes, I decided "hey, why not try a Juul instead," and, the rest is history.

While I'm overall in favor of vapes and think that they're a valuable cessation device, the problem, for me, is that it's all to easy to vape while I work in my home office - no smell, no fire, etc. I think that makes it a lot easier to continually dose nicotine and really settle into addiction. Also, while I'm sure they're safer than cigarettes, I still have doubts that they're safe, and I can't help but think of the attitudes that used to prevail with regards to tobacco back in the 40s and 50s when I hear folks talking about how totally OK for your body vaping is.


Juul is useful if you want to switch from smoking to vaping because the high percentage of nicotine makes it easy. But for the same reason, it's incredibly addictive. Also difficult to stop by tapering down because low nicotine percentage juul pods don't exist.


I recently switched to a refillable pod "mod," and plan to start tapering down by buying lower percentage vape liquid. Iirc there's two concentrations available in Juul pods, but let's be honest, they don't want you to quit. (Not that any other vape company does either, but the vape store model does allow a little more consumer control).


Nicotine Vapes - Look at the effective dosage of JUULs capsules for example [0]. This combined with the ease of use, the removal of the (unpleasant) smoke, increased social acceptance (often indoors too) and a huge advertising campaign deliberately targeting teens [1] created a lot of new smokers/nicotine addicts (and converted some) that smoke more often and at much higher dosages.

[0] https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/01/416371/juul-delivers-subst...

   The research found that blood nicotine concentrations in the JUUL group (136.4 ng/ml) was eight times higher than e-cigs group (17.1 ng/ml) and 5.2 times higher than cigarettes (26.1 ng/ml).
[1] https://truthinitiative.org/research-resources/emerging-toba...


Vaping probably. Depending on the jurisdiction people can get extremely high-nicotine liquids, or ingredients to mix such liquids at home.


Humans are hilariously fallible.

I find it interesting that , somehow, preparing for Lent, a time to eat simply and consider the elevation of your soul, became Mardi Gras, an excuse to let it all rip.


Hah, I didn't know that.

It's like Pancake Day in the UK. Traditionally the time to use up sugar/milk/eggs before lent but turns into everyone buying extra to pig out on. To think we could have got Mardi Gras instead.


>> I will add, the fasting from food and water is the easy part. Yes, sleep deprivation is the most difficult part. Going to bed late due to invitations, prayers.. getting up early morning to eat breakfast and waking up for work :)


I find the lack of sleep the hardest. You don’t really miss the lack of food or water unless you’re in a hot climate.


You sleep less during Ramadan?


Yes, especially near the end. You need to stop eating when the first rays of light can be seen which is a few hours before sunrise. As this starts becoming earlier and earlier you get to a point where it’s hardly worth going to sleep and waking up to eat. Also, you’re in the mosque till late for night prayers.


Depends on which part of the big ball you are located. If the nights are smaller for you, there isn't really a way to get good long sleep.


Yea I like to describe fasting like going super saiyan but in spirituality and religiosity.


Fasting from sexual desires is the hardest part for me.


It's from sunrise to sunset, no? Can't you get it on at night instead of during the day?


Technically, yes. Many treat it similar to NNN, though. As in sex with spouses is fine, but they take advantage of the holy month to quit pornography.


Don't know how this works for Muslims, but if it's anything like for Christians, the goal is to not have the desires to begin with, not just refrain from acting on them (though that's a good start).


How can average Joe have no desires? I understand and know that monk-like complete refrain from worldy pleasures really leads to having no desires at all (a type of ego-death), and this has some place in Islam too, although it is not obligatory for every muslim. In Ramadan, the goal for a muslim is to not act upon forbidden desires for Allah’s sake.


I’m skeptical of this point. Growing up Baptist, I was taught that temptation itself is not a sin because Christ was sinless and he was tempted in the desert by the devil.


> the goal is to not have the desires to begin with

Which is an empty exercise. You can't "stop having desires" for a month. Just another ritual to control the population, huh?


Yes you totally can.


Thanks for that insight. I didn't realize it extended beyond food/water/certain vices.


The Christian tradition calls it "fasting, prayer and almsgiving".


does it correspond to lent in some way?


"Lent"?


yes, this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent


> and from your own desires

As a non-religious gay I probably wasn't invited anyway. But this kind of thinking is what leads conservatives to so much repression and hate. The idea that the wants and needs of your body are something which the mind must actively fight. That the scratchy, ill-fitting wool sweater of your culture is something that you must keep on at all costs. And it leads to resentment of people who are not under such self-imposed restrictions.

There is a reason in queer culture that 'shadiness' is a bigger sin than anger. Shadiness is what happens when someone represses their true feelings. Those feelings don't go away though, they just resurface in other unexpected and non-adaptive ways.


That sounds like you're coming at this from a similar standpoint to one of the other major religions which I would rather not mention as I don't want to start a religious war here.

In Islam you're not hated or judged for what you call your true feelings. You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around. Fasting is one of the things that can help with that. As for feeling invited, honestly I get why you may think that (because a lot of Muslims do a frankly terrible job of marketing) but that's not how Islam looks at people, it doesn't look at people as unchanging monoliths, instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter. Basically your inner reality is between you and God. Islam fully understands people have all sorts of desires, lusts, etc, the thing is in Islam you aren't cursed for having those desires, but for acting upon them rather than gaining control over them. HTH.


> you aren't cursed for having those desires, but for acting upon them

That sounds exactly as repressive and hateful that other major religion, as well as historical laws which punished homosexual acts in many western countries. You have highlighted the difference between our desires and our behavior, but you seem to deliberately avoid acknowledging that straight people are permitted an institution in which their desires can be met within constraints, but gay people are not.

"You're invited to participate in our faith so long as you scrupulously act like someone else for your whole life" sounds a lot like an unvitation.


Islam pretty much is a framework for how you deal with God and for how your life here and hereafter will be according to that relationship. That's all it is.

You also acknowledge that even straight people have constraints in Islam, i.e. no sleeping around etc, why not also argue that it's somehow terrible that straight people have to repress their desire to fornicate?

"You're invited to participate in our faith so long as you turn your focus away from your base desires and towards God and the hereafter"

You're insinuating that you're being targeted or singled out whereas Islam "blanket-bans" entire categories of what are considered regressive behaviours such as overeating, you're not being targeted here, so can you stop with the victim complex please? Islam is as against environmental destruction, abuse of animals or overeating as much as it is against what it sees as wrongful sexual desire. What I feel like is being missed for the trees here is that the "holisticness" of Islam. It's against what it sees as destructive behavior, without prejudicing or singling out any specific group. Look at the higher purpose here.


You've buried the lede that the core framework does see homosexual behavior as "wrongful sexual desire", "regressive behaviour".

You can accept that or not, but it's disingenuous to equate asking gays never to have sexual or romantic relationships, to asking non-gay people just to curb excess.

That's not an equal imposition, it feels like self-equivocating ad-hominem to read "you're not being targeted here, so can you stop with the victim complex please?"

If you agree that it's better for gay people to never experience intimacy, please just say so, without labelling the concern (that gay people may feel less invited) as ridiculous


Someone who has a thirst for illicit relationship with women must also refrain from doing so.

Forbidding a person from lusting anyone other than spouse whether they like it or not is no different than forbidding a person from having gay desires. And no amount of self identification can label that inhumane.


Under your axioms, it may be equivalent, but I think they're mistaken.

Orientation is not a choice, and is orthogonal to identification.

I believe that same-sex relationships can be as profoundly fulfilling, enriching, and pro-social as heterosexual relationships.

That marrying a straight woman with a gay man is profoundly unfulfilling for both.

And that denying a class of people something so profound, freely enjoyed by everyone else, and which does not harm anyone else, can indeed be seen as inhumane.


You say orientation isn't a choice even though bisexuals at least establish it as their free choice for relationship. Fine. Even if you correctly claim that some people may have an immutable orientation, why would you in your brilliant and far reaching wisdom think it would be inhumane for the same person to be celibate from that orientation? And further think it is inhumane for the person to engage in a relationship of another orientation?

I don't believe for a second any person has this immutable orientation, straight or gay. And likewise, I don't believe it is inhumane for a person to avoid a relationship that is illegitimate. Trying to argue otherwise is like arguing the color blue can also be seen as red.


I am not bisexual, but tried to be. The choice wasn't available.

Have you felt strong attraction for both sexes? If not, have you tried to?


If you tried to feel attraction but could not, you might need help on understanding what attraction is. Until you do, you won't know what love and harm is.


You feel attraction for both sexes, but choose to ignore one?


You choose to behave.


We are here. We do not harm each other. We do not harm other people. I believe God wills it. Peace, Nas.


I've said your description sounds "exactly as repressive and hateful" as another major religion and the laws of many western states until relatively recently. You're insinuating that Islam is being targeted or singled out whereas I will blanket label as homophobic any regime which masquerades as being even-handed because they generously permit queer people to pretend to be straight, so can you stop with the victim complex please?

Liberal humanism is against what it sees as destructive and oppressive behavior, without prejudicing or singling out any specific group. Look at the higher purpose here.


> In Islam you're not hated or judged for what you call your true feelings. You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around

To me, that sounds like a very fancy way of saying : repress your feelings and who you are to conform to an arbitrary set of rules written by one dude hundreds years ago.

Enlighten me on how are you supposed to act/feel to “gain mastery over your feeling” when said feeling is “as a male; I want to spend the rest of my life sharing experiences with this other male, intimate and not intimate, without endangering anyone else” ?


Repress your feelings of desire for your neighbor’s wife. Do not act on those feelings. Stay away from anything that could even slightly make you sinful or think of sinful desires.

This is a form of discipline and mastery of desires. Enlighten me how this is not what a faith built on God’s word should be commanding on any individual?


> Repress your feelings of desire for your neighbor’s wife. Do not act on those feelings. Stay away from anything that could even slightly make you sinful or think of sinful desires.

Why should you repress those feelings ? Unless they don't hurt you or hurt others; I see absolutely no reason to hide them or not act on them. What makes them "sinful" is you deciding they are sinful according to some made up rules you read in a book.

> Enlighten me how this is not what a faith built on God’s word should be commanding on any individual?

  - Rule nb 1: Avoid harming yourself as much as you can.
  - Rule nb 2: Avoid harming others as much as you can.
And very importantly :

  - Rule nb 3: Let others be.


You obviously do not believe in self control. I don't know in which culture eyeing your neighbor's wife is OK.


So you are saying they are invited as long as they are willing to endure people trying to change them?


No I didn't say that at all, and that's a petulant response honestly. Re-read my comment. I said Islam instructs people to make their feelings subordinate to them rather than the other way around. The other replies to the GP were not so different from what I'm saying. You're hardly required to state your sexual orientation each time you pray, if that's the sort of line of reasoning you're taking here.


Perhaps I misunderstood you? What did you mean with

> instead you are seen as a blank slate and whatever actions you do impact your life here and the life hereafter

I assumed you meant that people will be welcomed because they are a blank slate that can be written upon by those seeking to influence them.


Lol, Blank slate does not mean for others to write on you. Blank slate means for you to be free of your own tendencies and not be beholden to your desires. And able to write your own Character.


I read it as you are your own blank slate to write on as you choose


(in reply to the post you just sent) I can't actually reply to comments that far down, I guess that's a HN quirk I didn't notice all this time until just now but yeah I also just covered that in a reply to someone else https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35657964


That's actually kind of the point.


He never mentioned change.


>you are seen as a blank slate

To me, this is just another angle of what the parent comment was talking about. We are not blank slates. We have millions of years of evolutionary instinct and genetics/epigenetics built into us AND we have everything we are fed (literally and figuratively) affecting us before we even get a chance to start thinking about 'who' or 'what' we are.

The blank slate line of thinking is what conservatives in the US implicitly (or explicitly) use to make the claim that being gay is a choice. It seems that it's just another way to justify punishing people for things that may be beyond their control, because if we are blank slates, then everything about you is your own fault.

Obviously there are aspects about ourselves that we can change, but the blank slate ideal is a dangerous slope to slide down.

>You are however instructed to gain mastery over those feelings and make them subordinate to you rather than the other way around

Genuine question: How is this different from saying "it's not bad to be gay, it's just bad to not repress your feelings and never act on them", as is a common (paraphrased) refrain among those who are anti-lgbt?


> Genuine question: How is this different from saying "it's not bad to be gay, it's just bad to not repress your feelings and never act on them", as is a common (paraphrased) refrain among those who are anti-lgbt

I'll admit it's probably not hugely different though to my understanding Islam's purpose is more about guiding a person to have a relationship with God rather than being anti-anything, and about doing what is within one's ability to move towards that goal. Like I said in a different reply it's not like you are being singled out for hatred or anything like that, the purpose is for everyone to get themselves right with God.


To clarify, a blank state in your relationship with God. Like, you aren't judged for being a certain sexual way until you actually act on it (or choose to not act on it).


Imagine telling people that they are cursed because they choose to love, instead of living in celibacy.

No thanks.


As a non-religious gay, I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue.

However, raiding the cabinet of historically religious practices and stripping god out of them can be helpful. A lot of things we do on impulse don't actually make us happy, and cutting them out for a bit can be a good way to examine whether they've become unhelpful/unskillful habits. I don't think drinking is inherently bad, but "dry January" can be a nice way to check that I'm not developing a dependency. I'm glad I have a smartphone but I do find that periodically being completely away from screens is a good check. Sex, food, other substances, media, can all be good but can also become parts of habits that don't actually lead to happiness. Temporary self-denial can be a useful tool in reworking one's relationship to these, even if you're definitely going to keep them in your life in some form.


Yea and as a Muslim - I view it more as practicing discipline rather than suppressing desires. Like one the other posts said, you can't be blamed or sinned for having desires or whatever thoughts you have in your head. If we were, then basically no one is getting into heaven. And for some desires, Islam offers ways to fulfill them in a way that it views as permissiable. Whether or not you buy that ultimately comes down to faith but that's a separate topic.

Notice how imams are not celibate like Catholic priests. In fact celibacy isn't even a thing in Islam. You're actively encouraged to get into a relationship and get married so you can fulfill your sexual desires. There's even a prophetic quote that says getting married is half of your religion. It's that important. Of course some things like drinking is not allowed even if you desire it and that's just something you have to deal with. But even if you cave it's not the end of the world because the grading system is heavily curved in your favor.

Having desires is natural and human and it's even ok to indulge in them every once in a while in a healthy way.

The Islamic term for this is nafs which means "self" or sometimes "ego". So fulfilling human desires is filling your nafs. But just like overfilling your stomach can be bad, overfilling your nafs is also bad so you need to practice discipline in not getting carried away.


> I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue.

Murder? Mayhem? Destruction? Greed?

I agree homosexuality is a fine thing, but your comment is altogether far tooo broad.

Societal morals are often about denying ourselves things we want to do: often because our actions affect others or offend others, but also often for no strong reason at all. Virtue is almost defined by holding ourselves back from unvirtuous actions: can virtue exist in the world if we can all do whatever we will?


As a vegetarian for ethical reasons who grew up enjoying eating dead animals, I think we're on the same page actually. But strictly speaking, the virtue (perhaps a loaded word) I think you're alluding to is a willingness to pursue policies which maximize utility function which sums over agents other than oneself, not self-denial per se. Greed is perhaps the most illustrative "vice" on your list; satisfying one's personal greed only sometimes will cause any harm to others, and sometimes will be appropriate to pursue.


> > I fully agree that continually denying yourself something that makes you happy isn't a virtue.

> Murder? Mayhem? Destruction? Greed?

The bar is so low you consider not being a dangerous sociopath a virtue?


You think a dangerous sociopath is not virtuous if, for moral reasons, they hold back from acting upon their antisocial base desires?


You think they hold back from acting upon their desires because of god?


A dangerous sociopath with functioning moral compass? That sounds like an oxymoron, don't you think?

And no, fulfilling the very bare minimum is not virtuous. When virtuous person stops being virtuous, they fall to "average", not to the lowest possible.


You introduced the term sociopath, not me. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_portrayals_of_psychopat...


freedom in the matter of choosing your own actions is definitely a nice tool to have when planning your week or day, or or responding to stressful suprises.


You got to live and let live, otherwise you are acting no different than them. Greta Thunberg chooses to repress her desires to eat meat or travel and see the world for something she sees as greater good. When she gets older, she may well decide against having children to keep human footprint on the planet smaller. I am not doing any such things myself and I don't accept rewilding as an intrinsic goal of environmentalism. I believe that humans are the apex species on the planet and, like all such species, are primarily concerned with our own thriving - which may involve conservation but not self denial.

But, I am not going to try to stop her or make her life difficult with constant needling. Just like you shouldn't stop those who are willing to constrain their own sexuality for the sake of avoiding what they perceive as spiritual pollution, just like Greta is willing to constrain herself to avoid environmental pollution. To each their own, and for some living up according to their idea of honor is a greater comfort than more direct gratification. In time, we all learn something valuable even from those we don't agree with.

Can we however agree that America and other countries that embraced Western culture are great because you can live your life as you want and observant Muslims can live their lives as they want?


not religious either – but the notion that your feelings are "true" and ideals or aspirations that run counter to your feelings are "false" is a very one-sided way to look at this.

If you ask a heroin addict what their true feelings are, the wants and needs of their bodies, it's probably just "get high".

If you ask a 16 year old kid with a porn addiction, it's probably just "get off".

There is no shortage of maladaptive desires in the world, and no shortage of ways to fulfill them. I think you can trace probably half the world's problems to one word: "addiction". The motivation system of the brain gone wrong.

I think what you're trying to point to here is the other half of the world's problems, which is effectively: "acceptance", or rather, the lack thereof. The empathetic system of the brain gone wrong.


I'm non religious too and I take your point, but to play devil's advocate -- Most of civilization and the ability for humans to live and cooperate together in large groups, requires us to move past our base wants, desires and the actions they would create.

Even if you want to burn down my house and murder me because I wronged you or slighted your family, that's not morally correct. We have secular law to codify what we see as morally right and I think it makes sense that before states really existed or unified people through national myths, that function was served by Gods


Repressing my desire to eat every bit of food in front of me helps me on the scale.

Repressing desires to stay on the couch and going for a run instead gives me freedom to experience the world without being out of breath or stopping halfway on the hike.

Repressing desires to keep all of my money for myself leads me to be more charitable, which is better for others.

So yeah, self-control is a great thing to cultivate because the presence of a desire does not mean that the desire is good. And even if it's not bad, then it's something that can hinder a greater good.


It's more subtle than this. Your brain can tell you to do stupid things. Not all desires are good. I can over eat, over spend, over work or procrastinate. And that's not even going into deeper brain reflex or addiction. And then you have actual neurology.

I'm not a religious person, but I believe (sic) that behind fasting periods, there's a training around the theme of balance.


You've completely missed the mark. Life is full of contradictory desires. I would love to have a lean, muscular body. I also love pizza.

Fasting is a practice of discipline; consciously choosing to forgo one thing to focus on another. You don't not eat because God or Allah or Buddha or whomever actually care that you didn't eat. You don't eat to focus on mastering your own desires such that you can better your own mindfulness of adherence to the other strictures of your faith during your daily life, even when you are not fasting.

The reason many religions focus on fasting is that it is a common and simple way to be aware of a temptation and choose to not give into it.

Edit: I should add, in case my point wasn't obvious, that none of the above has to do with you or anyone else. It is purely a personal thing.

Anyone who brags about how much religious fasting they are doing are just showing that they have been wasting their time and have gotten nothing from it.


You could say the same thing about extreme endurance sports. It’s not about looking down on other people. It’s about appreciating what you have and for one month putting yourself in the shoes of those for whom even one meal a day isn’t something they can take for granted.


Hate is natural, just look at history. Practicing restraint from natural feelings like hate is a purpose of fasting. Do note, it has been an organized practice in western civilization centuries longer than even Islam has existed.


The ability to repress desires to focus on long term goals or to develop appreciate for the satiating of those desires is a good long term skill to have.

Distance makes the heart grow fonder


Even deeper, the essence of Ramadan is to not eat and drink while you need it the most, during the day, where you work and get tired.

It resonates with the feeling of holding your anger even when you have the rights to be angry. Holding your arrogance when faced against someone who had less money, fame, etc, than you.

And Ramadan fasting is more than just not eating and drinking. You are not allowed to lie, to be angry, to speaks foul/dirty.

Eid Mubarak! Taqabalallah!


A study on judicial rulings show a link between rulings and the time they have been issued between food breaks [1]. It appears that the more hungry the judges are, the less they show clemency.

Similarly, living in a Mulsim country, I have not observed the virtues that supposedly stem from religious fasting.

[1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1018033108


The Hungry Judge Effect has been debunked. Not that your larger point is not valid.


If you're going to claim something is debunked, a citation would be greatly appreciated.


Big thread about it recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35491060


I mean its still our choices whether to fast and hold our urge to eat even when we needed it the most (hot day, tired).

The same that its our choices whether to hold our anger and resolve things peacefully and objectively (someone messed up at work, we have the power to blame and fire them).

Ramadan fasting is just a part of islamic practice, just doing Ramadan fasting might not give any virtues. But Islam also teaches to treat everyone objectively, be patient, hold anger, etc.


Every time Ramzan rolls out, we here in Pakistan have squabbles over eye-witness evidence of moon sightings and thus start (and stop) of the holy month. We will be celebrating Eid on Saturday but some celebrated today following Saudi Arabia. It's an annual tradition of confusion.

Also, this: https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/567790-intent-law


That is in most countries where they actively seek the moon. There is going to be squabble about visibility. If not visibility, then there is going to be squabble about which other community’s visibility you should align with. Pakistan is the least squabbling country.

See crescentwatch.org


Eid Mubarak Said, back at you and to everyone in HN. In our traditions this is also a day of honey and almond-paste based sweets.

For anyone currently in Berlin who wants to try the moroccan Eid experience, hit me up! And make sure you’re ready for an exquisite sweetness rush :)


If you involve qatayef, cheveux d'ange, you are really tempting to drive...

Present in spirit, if not in flesh, mate! Cheers.


Cheers mate, another time!


I was unaware until this year that it was based on when the moon was _sighted_, not just on a conventional lunar calendar. This leads to very short notice public holidays in a couple of countries AIUI.


I didn't either, but my boss (who is Turkish) mentioned that there was middle-eastern countries where holidays were not totally predictable. This was in the context of some work-day report which had funky options.

Makes more sense now.


Views I have heard (not in a particular order):

- Follow Saudi Arabia (Mecca)

- Use astronomic calculations

- Moon needs to be sighted with naked eye in the local city

- Moon needs to be sighted with any tool (telescope) in the local city

- Moon needs to be sighted with naked eye anywhere in the world

- Moon needs to be sighted with any tool (telescope) anywhere in the world - ...


This leads to issues in e.g. Norilsk where it is polar summer during important Islam dates and you can often not see the moon at all.


Isn't the decision coming from the "muslim authority" (sorry I don't know the terms) located in the mecca anyway?


That's the other Eid,[1] which is related to the islamic pilgrim which occurs in Mecca mainly

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_al-Adha


There is no Muslim authority or institutions, it's decentralized


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that GP is partially correct, in that the lunar sighting is not an individual thing, but done at the communal level by the central authority. It's just that like most religions, Islam has multiple streams, and this there are multiple central authorities.

Is this not how it works? I'm not Muslim, this is what I understood from a Muslim coworker. He also implied that there's some politics involved, in that various Middle Eastern countries align themselves with their political bloc when announcing the day, although any political motivations are "alleged" and not acknowledged.


There's no central authority in Islam like the clergy in Catholism.

However there are legal schools and councils that people trust. Legal schools (or fiqh) were established by famous scholars that nearly everyone recognizes as an expert and were carried on by their students.

From a political standpoint, a lot of Muslims defer to Saudi Arabia because they are the current caretakers of Mecca and Medina.

But generally speaking for everyday normal Muslims they go with whatever their local imam says and go with whatever method the imam used because they are usually the most knowledgeable person around on such matters.


The choice of which community or authority to follow is also a personal preference. People often express their preferences in a way that aligns them tribally in one sphere or another when given the choice, and the lunar calendar is (humorously) not an exception to that.

There are no central authorities, only a menu of organizations and traditions that one can choose from. In some cases there is social pressure to choose one, and that social pressure is sometimes intense enough so that it feels like there is a central authority.


According to Islamic rulings if there’s a global caliphate every muslim in the world is required to obey that (there’s not one since 1915s). But besides that, all of the religion of Islam (rulings, practices) is capable of graceful degradation, scaling down to even just one person. If there was literally one muslim left on the face of the earth, that muslim would not lack anything in his practice of religion, virtousness or his connection with God. There’s no middleman to God like Christian (Catholic?) priests. Similarly if a group of muslims were to crash on an island in a plane accident, they’ll (and are required to) establish islamic order (sharia) there and function all by themselves. Islam is completely decentralized in this way.


My local mosque (and many others in the area) use calculations, but my mom's mosque just a few cities away uses moon sighting. We ended up starting and ending Ramadan at the same time but there was uncertainty on her part until last night.

At the end of the day you just follow whatever mosque you go to. If you want to follow moonsighting but your mosque does calculation, where do you go to celebrate Eid if the days differ?

Personally I wouldn't go to a mosque that uses moonsighting because I like predictability. My boss is Muslim so she would understand but it's still annoying for the company if I just went "I'm off tomorrow byeee" the night before.

I imagine some Muslim countries differ in the same way (some use calc some use sighting), though I can't say off the top of my head which countries use calculation.


I’ve got to assume that mosques here use the calculated date; with Irish weather you might not see the moon properly for weeks.


I'm muslim but I never understood why that is the case. Surely the lunar calendar/phases/characteristics must be easy to reliably predict?


Moon 'sighting' is much earlier than the Islamic tradition. It's discussed in the Mishna, so it was at least debated in the 2nd century CE: https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Rosh_Hashanah.2?lang=bi

The charitable case is that while something might be predictable, it's our conscious interaction that's important to these religions, not the theoretical knowledge.

The uncharitable case is that religions derive a lot of power from being able to fix time, and this demonstrates their sovereignty over people's lives in this sphere.


I and many others use calculations but some folks prefer the traditional method


Ah so it is just a preference? Is there usually an actual difference on when Eid is between the final "traditional" observation and the predicted calculations?


There are no official Muslim institutions, most people follow their congregation or teacher. The choice of who or what to follow is also a personal preference.


lunar groundhog day!


In Torah, months start when a crescent moon is sighted with an unaided eye without a binocular. They have moon charts like this in their calendars. https://eliyah.com/calendar2023.pdf There’s one holy day that starts on the first day of the seventh month.


Most Muslim majority countries give one or more day before/after the expected day just in case


Ramadan is one clear case where being in a place with many coreligionists obviously improves the experience of practising that religion. one can meditate alone, pray alone, even keep kosher as a small minority, but fasting amongst people with snacks and big gulps all day is harder than all together.

Eid Mubarak!


Yes. See: https://www.moonsighting.com/1444shw.html


It seems like there is a geographical bound on practicing (Orthodox?) Muslims. I imagine past 66.5 degrees of latitude, someone fasting would probably die due to the fact that the sun will never rise for a month. Has there been any debate or clarification on how Muslims living in complete darkness are to practice?

Edit: sun will never set/living in 24 hour sunlight. The fasting time is during daylight hours.


Have a look at this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6vfsYwXW6I.

The most misunderstood part about Islam is that how practical the religion is - Islam expects believers to give it their best shot, within reason and without being judged by some rigid binary rule.

It's perfectly okay to not fast for 22 hours and it's also okay if you can make it. Islam prioritizes health and well being.


Great video. Thank you. A good reminder that religious practices are like human beings. You can try to generalize, but in the end each person's faith is unique in some way.


Yes there is two main opinions for scholars. The first one is obvious, people in this place follow the fasting time of the nearest place that have sound sunrise/sunset times. The other is to follow the fasting times of mecca.


[flagged]


> I realize there's a 99.9% chance this will cause some emotions, so I won't post any further.

Or maybe go the whole hog and just don’t post? I’m not religious but questions like this can only be asked in very specific circumstances without causing offence.

This a thread trying to wish a significant segment of the hn community a happy festival. Is now really the time to question their beliefs?


It's the same kind of question that gets asked of Christians and it's absolutely an attempt to cut into the faith. Trying to poke holes in religious texts is just obnoxious.

I'm not religious but subscribe to the attitude that we should just let people practice whatever faith they want so long as it doesn't impact upon the rights of those not of the same belief system. I.e. it's fine for Christians to hold other Christians to account, but not to impose their will on others.

This is of course something that a lot of religions struggle with, but it's a best effort thing. I think a lot of societies are starting to get that.

In any case, Happy Eid Mubarak to all that have been observing Ramadan (this will be my only post on this thread, so it's here or nowhere).


I mean I'm not going to go into it too much because there's a lot of reasons why something being divine doesn't mean it needs to spell everything out letter for letter, but I am going to invite comments because your "food for thought" is really just a veiled smirk at people who believe in a divine.

Most people who believe in a higher power aren't stupid and have already thought of your point for centuries before you


Islamic tradition values reason and rationality. It doesn’t say to blindly follow stuff. You still have to reason through new situations. The Quran is more for spiritual guidance even though it has some prescriptions. But most of the "rules" come from hadiths or the prophetic tradition which has been passed down orally before it was compiled into books by famous scholars.

For example, the Quran says to pray but doesn't spell out how to pray. We learn how to pray from the hadith. Same thing with fasting. The Quran just says fast like Abraham fasted but it doesn't spell what that was. So we follow the way the Prophet did and he's human - he probably wasn't thinking how it would affect people in higher latitudes. He doesn't have supernatural powers or foresight. We say he's the best of us within human limits. Hence why there's a rich scholarly tradition to work these edge cases. It's also why we traditionally break our fast with dates because that's how the prophet did it. But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary. There's nothing inheritly special about it. It's a staple food in the middle east so it's what he had access to. If the prophet lived in east Asia, then he probably would have broke his fast with rice and then that we would be the thing we break our fast with.

Also the Quran is not like other texts when it comes to structure. It was "revealed" (or authored for the non-religious) over a span of 20+ years and usually in response to something that happened. It's really more a dialogue between god and the prophet and his companions in response to events (someone is being mean or trying to kill them) or if they need guidance or reassurance on something. That's why sometimes taking verses literally is often wrong.


> But the choice of dates is pretty arbitrary.

Of course it's not! It must be comfortable for farmers, and the farming season starts just now. I'm not a religious but I respect Islam as the most wise of religions, like an iPhone among other cell phones. I want to try fastening because I see some wisdom in having a month with feeding like that and I consider these days of year as totally not arbitrary.


I meant breaking your fast with dates is kinda arbitrary not the fasting itself. Fasting is very much not arbitrary and has a very special meaning since it's one of the few things we do solely for God and God alone. Also you can fast outside of Ramadan as well and get additional blessings from it. The prophet would routinely fast on Mondays for example. I think the only days you are not allowed to fast on is Eid because it's a time for celebration.

There's no rule that says you _have_ to break your fast with dates. We just do because that's how the prophet usually did it. Dates have no inherit religious significance. I eat them throughout the year because they are delicious and have nutritional benefits and there's some baraqah (wisdom) in things turning out this way. Also when it comes to farming dates are often harvested in late fall/early winter that's when they are juiciest so we just missed the window but also Ramadan rotates around the seasons due to being on the Lunar calendar. But there are different kinds of dates and you can dry them and they last on long time without spoiling. A very useful property when you live in a desert hence why it's such a common fruit there.

Even when the prophet didn't have access to dates, he would break it with water or yogurt, or even just salt instead. Whatever he has access to at the time.


Why would something that only applies to probably 0.01% of humans be mentioned in a book made to be understood/followed by everyone? Especially when Islam always allows for exceptions based on good faith, reasonable terms and best effort. That's why you can eat pork if no other food is available, or drink alcohol for medical reasons (mostly surgery, back then). You are also allowed to not fast whenever you travel, so it's not like exceptions on fasting rules can't exist.

So with that framework, it is not needed to have every single little quirk documented. But it sometimes also requires islamic experts to confirm what would be reasonable and reassure those who haven't read or understood everything in the Quran. You really can't look at Islam as a completely rigid list of potential gotchas. And there's no equivalent of a clergy or a pope, so you have to think of those experts' interpretations as more of a "legal opinion" instead of religious or divine mandates.

(It's also why it is funny whenever I hear about people dunking bullets in pig blood or whatever when fighting against muslims, because they think that will send them to hell or something. As if intent isn't super important in Islam!)


"Now that I've condescended to you, I expect you to let that be the last word."

I'm not religious, but your comment ought to be engraved on a monument to pomposity.


Chronologically, the first sentence of the Quran is "Read."

And, the Quran on dozens of occasions demands that people think and use their faculty of reason.

A message can be considered divine without it being completely patronizing


ssshhhhh, it's not irrational superstition if it's been practiced for > 200 years. At that point it becomes quaint tradition. After 500 years, it's 'cultural practice'. Beyond that, unquestionable dogma.

Mankind will only be free when the last priest is strangled with the entrails of the last politician.


Ironic that you're preaching violence I think lol


I think that line is a paraphrase of something often attributed to Diderot. Since he lived in the 18th century, this falls into the "quaint tradition" category.


Diderot or not, the 18th Century French certainly knew how to treat their politicians when they went just a bit too despotic.


I can't read the full article, but The Atlantic has covered it: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/ho...

I know in Space astronauts are told to follow the timezone of where they are from


Im curious what the approved method is for muslims in space? like, can you have a snack every 90 minutes?


It’s my understanding that if you are subject to unusual fasting conditions - 24hr daylight / darkness / in space you follow the rules as if you were in Mecca.


Just more generally, I was wondering if people might share their experience of Islam? I'm quite ignorant honestly.

How did you come to find the religion? What impacts (positive and negative) does it have on your life?

One thing which has made me uncertain, is the praising of martyrdom throughout the Quran. How is this aspect reconciled within peaceful societies? I mean no disrespect through this question, and recognise this may not be the best place to ask.


Definitely not the best place to ask but I try.

Martyrdom in literal terms is death by any means other than natural. So if a building collapses on a person, they are called martyred. I am not sure which one you are referring to but if you mean the martyrs of battle, they get a special kind of salvation on the day of judgement.

Your fourth question is funny. Peaceful societies are transient. When push comes to shove, no society is “peaceful”. Islam works upon an order of laws that command action and discipline at all times including during persecution and battle. The first physical battle is one for your defense. The second battle is one for the liberation of another. Anyone who dies in this cause is given a certain kind of salvation different from any other. But to be honest, the salvation is not the highest of salvation that one could get. There are higher magnitudes.

Islam gives a person structure (as all religion do?), an absolute perfect guidance, and an order of hierarchy that puts God above all, and the worshiper as His slave. From this point on, the worshiper struggle and strives in the path to establish his prayers, pay the charity that is due, and fast.

My journey is one of successes and falls. And persistence. It helps me discover personal flaws, work towards eradication, and then discover deeper truths and more concealed flaws. And upon an endless cycle that I hope by the time I meet my lord, I am free of any and all imperfections. Without Islam, I am a slave to my desires and intellect, which is self driven, and misleading.

Last note: A Muslim is one who submits to God, follows the religion of Abraham called Islam as conveyed by Muhammad, peace on them both, who was gifted with a miracle called the Quran. It is the only religion that specifically came by design for all of mankind. And though this is a challenging statement to make, the Quran is bold enough to make it. I cannot imagine a book or making such high claims, and not fail them even after so many centuries, without being a miracle itself.


I recommend checking out this documentary series [0]. I also don’t think a comment thread is an appropriate place to get to know Islam. Religion of Islam is maybe the heaviest of topics to discuss, with the depth of philosophy, yet simple in its fundamentals which even a child can understand, with a knowledge load and literature comparable to material sciences, offering a comprehensive explanation to the life we came to perceive and a complete solution to our problems.

As for my experience, suffice it to say I’m more in peace more I live according to Islam, and I see the same in everyone else around me. I’m Muslim and live in a muslim country btw.

[0]: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcnL9bB-q3ymnRNcpZGcVVjiD...


I have new neighbors who are Muslim, how would I wish them happy Eid Mubarak? Like a card or something?

I barely know them they’re new, but want them to feel welcome, think they might be the only Muslim neighbors


Just say "Eid Mubarak" with a warm smile, should be good. Could be followed by a friendly hug and a gift of sweetmeats but that's mostly for family & friends.

And for the curious: the proper response to an "Eid Mubarak!" is "Khair Mubarak!"


Just saying the word "Happy Eid Mubarak" alone is okay.


Technical note: "Happy Eid Mubarak" is a phrase is a bit like "Happy Merry Christmas", since "Eid Mubarak" translates as "Blessed Eid".

"Eid Mubarak" is fine as is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_al-Fitr#General_rituals


"Eid" is the day, and "Mubarak" means merry/blessed. So "Happy Eid" could be the sentiment if you're uncomfortable with pronouncing "Mubarak" (which is completely phonetic, by the way) or just "Eid Mubarak."


[flagged]


You can't post slurs or religious flamewar to HN. As you've done so repeatedly in this thread, I've banned this account.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.


If you are afraid of offending people through interactions, what makes you comfortable here instead?


Eid Mubarak all! So grateful for this community -- feels like I've learnt more through here than all of university ;)


Eid Mubarak; thank you - it's nice to hear it from someone other than my close circle


Ramadan festival in Sydney

https://www.notquitenigella.com/2023/04/13/ramadan-nights-fe...


Didn't expect this here. <3


Another note, one of the main ideas of Ramadan is to experience the struggle of the poor, who can't find food to eat.

> its purpose being to cleanse the soul by freeing it from harmful impurities. Muslims believe that Ramadan teaches them to practice self-discipline, self-control,[65] sacrifice, and empathy for those who are less fortunate, thus encouraging actions of generosity and compulsory charity (zakat).[66]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan


Hate to be that guy, but that's not at all what Islam says about why fasting was prescribed, and it's actually super clear about the purpose. I mean this is pretty basic, so I don't know why I keep hearing that same old line.

"O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may develop God-consciousness." https://quran.com/2/183


There are multiple interpretations for this, tqawa can include helping the poor.

(In Arabic) https://islamqa.info/ar/answers/232635/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D8...


I am not a religious scholar, but wouldn't God-consciousness include having empathy for all beings? I would partially define being enlightened as being able to experience everything in creation.


I'm not a religious scholar either, but if we're discussing what Islam says is the purpose of fasting, then yeah it couldn't be clearer in that verse. If you want to derive a sense of compassion for all beings from the idea of God-consciousness/piety/taqwa, then yeah you may have a point that it is a secondary effect of fasting, but Arabic has adequate expressiveness to cater for that if that was the prime motive, so I disagree that that is the central reason for fasting.


As an Arabic speaker, the verse in the Qur'an means to me that fasting helps you remember Allah.

Islam has no concept of empathy for all beings, or enlightenment really. The assumption is that without the fear of God and Hell, people would sin by default, and religious practices are meant to please God.

Often progressive Muslims mention Sufis but they have been persecuted enough, for holding God-consciousness type beliefs amongst others, to consider them a different thing altogether.


> wouldn't God-consciousness include having empathy for all beings?

A rabbit or a fruit isn't going to appreciate your understanding of its worldly struggles while you eat them, so why does it even matter?


[flagged]


Please don't do this here.


It's an honest question!


Omnipotence is something different from omniscience


Do you have a source beyond your own "clear" interpretation of this verse? I think if you dig deeper you will find that it's what the tradition says, what the recognized commentary on these verses say, and certainly if you ask Muslims what they think it's about, this is what they'll point to. That matters too.


I'm not interpreting the verse, I'm telling you what's there, just read the verse, go through all the various translations. No interpretation necessary. Like I said, Arabic is adequately expressive to just say "fasting is about reminding you poor people are suffering" if that's what the purpose was. No need to equivocate. Even the commentary is secondary to what the verse actually clearly says. If a verse says "God is One", do we really need a commentary to point out where there could be room for 2 Gods?


Quran isn't like normal Arabic. Its interpreted differently.


UK Midlands city of a million, neighbourhood close to city centre with a majority(?) Muslim population drawn from diverse ethnic traditions.

The guys with the buckets have been out on most main roads all through the month - respectfully offering the chance to donate - no 'compulsion' in evidence. People are generous round here. I pop my coins in and others are putting in fivers and tenners.

Definitely party time here at the moment. Excited children and huge amounts of food being cooked.


As I understand it, ‘compulsory’ here means that it’s a religious obligation, in general, not that it is legally enforced.


There's something to note that Middle-East has a low incident of cancer in comparison to other regions while still having a high fat/sugar diet. I believe fasting is a large part of that equation.


Eid Mubarak from India


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_Mubarak


Eid Mubarak to fellow hackers! I'm so grateful to this community for helping me to stay up to date on technology and entrepreneurship.


Eid Mubarak!

> no food or water

But really no water? That doesn’t sound healthy. Of course you can easily make it through a day without fluids but…


Fun fact: The start and end of Ramadan shifts by something like two weeks each year. It was from 22 March to 20 April this year and 1 April to 1 May last year. So muslims in the northern hemisphere who are growing up or are very old now have it a bit easier since each year it's going more into Spring/Winter. I remember growing up in Europe we'd have one or two muslim kids in our class and I was horrified because they weren't allowed to drink any water on the hottest summer days.


hottest and longest.


I'm not a muslim, but I've done ramadan for my own edification and really it seems fine. Ramadan isn't prescribed for anyone who's on prescriptions or unhealthy. The worlds top soccer players fast and are still competitive. On top of that, a large part of the middle east was conquered while the soldiers were fasting.

The human body is quite capable of more than we give it.


I think society has gotten to a point that if we don't have 3 "well balanced meals" daily, drink a gallon of water a day, you're living unhealthy and bad.

But people don't realize that fasting is important to your body... We store fat to use during that time... That's the whole point of storing fat. Energy and that while you don't have it.

12 hours a day is absolute cake-walk for our bodies.


Yeah, fasting is great for letting our bodies recalibrate. 12 hours is nothing. It's parroted a lot but a large UK gentleman went an entire year on multivitamins, water, and a handful of other minerals to lose weight with no damage to his body. He was under doctor supervision so self-managed fasting is probably between 12 hours and 365 days.


Religious fasts are not held for health reasons :)


Some of them are still for reasons within the range of "health".


That's usually the first question that pops up when explaining it to non-Muslims haha but yes, really, no water either.


Not unhealthy, unless you don't drink enough before dawn


It also depends on the level of activity, as with any other thing. Personally I've been well-hydrated throughout the days, going to the loo quite often.


To be fully hydrated you need to drink water for 24 hours in advance. If you drink a ton of water before sunrise and after sunset, every day, you can still be properly hydrated. Not ideal of course, but not necessarily unhealthy.


Within 5 days I'm fully adjusted but there are some symptoms of dehydration before that.

Leads me to doubt the conventional wisdom these days of "drink gallons of water per day to have a chance of being healthy"


As long as you are properly hydrated before it's really not that bad.

Even this Ramadan, when I went to pee later in the day, the color wasn't dark implying I wasn't that dehydrated.


It’s fine bro! Like 2 billion people including me does it every single year. Nothing happens. You just drink at night more. We’re perfectly healthy.


Good for you. But please don't generalize it for every one. Lack of water intake does multiply the hardship many folds. Especially now, when Ramzan(or Ramadan) falling in summer in the northern hemisphere.

Know people who have had strokes or break the fast due to extreme hardship. Domestic helps who are Muslims, or people doing physical labor, simply can't observe it. Its one of the hardest fasts there is, and restraint from drinking water is the main reason.


I know, but if it poses a real and serious health risk you are religiously prohibited from fasting. Islam prioritizes health in this situation. So it’s not that much of a concern. In my country, physical laborers also fast and I didn’t heard one breaking fast due to hardship.


People sit exams during ramadan, I don't know how


I had 12 years of pre-college education, 4 for university, 2 for Masters and 2 years of classes in my PhD ( I am candidate now) and I think I had exams while I was fasting in each year and it wasn't a big deal. I rarely even see a Muslim student break fast for exams. And I think people saying they request accommodation this week, that's usually because of Eid and the couple of nights before that we believe it is the night that quran was revealed to the prophet Mohamed, so people want to pray more at night (it is a probability not specific night from 21,23,25,27 and 29 of Ramadan)


How does your focus evolve or progress while fasting? Any relevant difference between the first days and the last days?


Simply, when you eat 3 meals a day, your body and mind is way less performant than what it could be in a good portion the day. So having all daytime fully productive helps. I personally don’t feel any desire to eat or drink after 1st day.


People play professional sports while fasting during Ramadan. I have no idea how they do it but having access to nutritionists probably helps.


In Germany, Muslim students had their exams excused this week, when everyone else wrote them. They can take them next week


I wonder why, Muslims only make up 5% of Germany's population, fiscally this wouldn't make much sense given that they would have to make a second exam paper & provide more labour


For some people, not everything is reduced to being as cost effective as possible.


Come to think of it, it was quite nice how they accommodated Muslims; however, they could have just postponed the exams.


the German's regain some reputation for hospitality.


Terrible idea and precedent IMHO.


Why?


You get used to it


From sunrise to sunset.

Today, sunrise was about 6:30am and sunset will be about 7:30pm. That's only 11 hours with no food or water.


That's 13 hours.


Yeah, I subtracted instead of added for some reason. Good catch.


Questions to understand better:

1. Is the practioner supposed to abstain from "bad" things in the evening after breaking the fast or is it just during the day? What's the hardline, "accepted", and commonly practices answer to this? 2. Is the big dinner party thing on the last day of fasting or the subsequent day? 3. Do people get gifts, when?


1. They probably get their fasting rewards if they do bad things at night, but they still got sins from doing that bad things at night. Its just that if you do it during the day it invalidates your fasting rewards and all you get is hunger and thirst.

2. Dinner party is a cultural thing, because we didn’t eat during the day and we have the same time to break fast, it became a party because everyone do it at the same time and usually at the same place. But the day of breaking fast (the Eid Iftar), you are supposed to eat in the morning to declare that Ramadan has ended and you can continue eat at day.

3. Another cultural things. Here, it happens few days before the end of Ramadan. The government mandates company to pay bonus during religious celebrations (christmas for christians, eid iftar for moslem, chinese new year for chinese, etc).


1- You should abstain from bad things all year round everyday. In Ramadan, during the day, you shouldn't eat, drink, smoke or have sex. This will nullify your fast if you do instantly. However, other things such as lying, backbiting..etc it's also bad and you should abstain from it as much as you can.

2- Big dinners are everyday at sunset. Some people/cultures have several meals before dawn, some other prefer to have just one or two.

3- Nobody get gifts. Usually, it's kids who get new clothes during Eid and they also get money gifted to them (usually small change and can range between $1 and $20 depending where you are). During Eid its required to visit family and friend in their home.


"Supposed to" is not the language I'd use. People feel motivated given their self control for food and water and are encouraged to try and use that momentum to also be better people.

In my personal experience as a compulsive snacker being able to fast daily for a month makes me feel like I can do anything


وَلِتُكۡمِلُوا۟ ٱلۡعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَىٰكُمۡ وَلَعَلَّكُمۡ تَشۡكُرُونَ :)


TIL that emojis are not rotated 180 degrees in Arabic.

Also, you don't rotate numbers either, right? As in, if you were to embed 12345 in a sentence it would look like: This sentence talks about 54321, which is a number just under 00002.


Yes, numbers in Arabic are LTR even when they're used mid (RTL) sentence.

We'd also use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Arabic_numerals instead of the confusingly named (western) Arabic numbers 0123456789...


In a way it makes more sense to have the units come first, i.e. how the numbers are written in Arabic. Namely, when you do arithmetic you start with the units, so that in English (etc) when you compute 1234 + 5678 you cannot just start writing down digits, but you have to reserve space and work backwards.


This is intentional. They're called Arabic numerals for a reason - when they were imported to Europe to replace Roman numerals, they weren't flipped. This is why mental arithmetic is harder than it needs to be.


Nope. These numerals got to Arabic from India, where writing is LTR, and the digit order was unchanged during that transition and the transition to Europe. The order we use is the original order. They're called Hindu-Arabic numerals [1] for a reason, and in Arabic the equivalent [2] are called Indian numbers (أَرْقَام هِنْدِيَّة) [3]!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Arabic_numerals

[3] https://translate.google.com/?sl=ar&tl=en&text=%D8%A3%D9%8E%...


I didn't know, thanks for the correction :)

The Arabs must have switched it around then


No one switched it around, that's my point. The digit order everyone uses is the one best suited to mental arithmetic in LTR languages, where the most significant digit is first. See the book Secrets of Mental Math by Arthur Benjamin. It's also the best suited to getting a rough idea of the number quickly in LTR languages. That's because the digit order everyone uses was designed for LTR languages.


If you have a friend who celebrates Eid, try and have some Seviyaan and Sheer-Khurma at their place.


Fasting is a great idea, but most of the Muslim friends I have eat through out the night after breaking the fast at sunset. I don't think that is very healthy.


My daughter is on a high school sports team with a number of Muslim girls and it was painful to watch these girls struggle through an after school practice with no access to water and no food all day.


I don't think that's healthy either. For instance, I broke the fast on sunset, with water, some fruits and something else I don't remember. In the morning I started the fast with a couple of dates, a handful of shelled peanuts, and water.

By the time Eid comes, I feel my "hunger hormones" have gone back to normal, allowing me to get full with just the amount I need. No more, no less.


Its not particularly healthy, though many ancient cultures prior to Islam have used fasting as part of a way to cleansing of the gut. The relevance to the moon is also from Pagan cultures


The gut naturally cleanses itself.


There is some weak evidence out there that periodic fasting can induce a host of salutary changes in the GI-tract microbiome.

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/fasting-gut-health-science


Have you ever occurred to you that it might be the other way around? There was always one monotheistic religion and God, but then things got sidetracked and people started making stuff up.

Also, Moon is relevant in Islam, as a calendar and timekeeping, nothing to be worshipped.

Also, All Monotheistic Religions have had fasting (the 3 big ones that survived so far) but again, the worst enemy of the people is their own selves and not the devil, and thus they modified what was given to them.


> There was always one monotheistic religion and God, but then things got sidetracked and people started making stuff up.

We know for a fact that this is false. For example, the Egyptians were building the pyramids and worshipping their gods at least a thousand year before any known monotheistic religion. The native people of Australia have even older polytheistic religions.


The ancient Egyptians were spectacularly insular and xenophobic, though. If anyone was going to make up their own belief system, probably out of spite, it's them.

What evidence there is specifically in this case suggests that the monotheistic middle eastern religions were derived from the evolution of a polytheistic belief system into a monotheistic one via a stopping-off point that acknowledged multiple deities, but consistently only worshipped one of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh are worth a read, and there are several references to multiple gods in the Old Testament, often in the PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE OTHER GODS BEHIND THE CURTAIN sense rather than as direct callouts, as you'd expect.

So unless we might mean that the sidetracking happened before the archaeological record of Canaanite polytheism starts, it's not really tenable as a suggestion.

I do not say this to devalue or challenge anyone's beliefs today; just that ignoring facts has a tendency not to go well. The moral and personal value of religious belief need not, to my mind, lean on historical record for its validity.


Look into Zoroastrianism, the grand-daddy of monotheistic religions. About 1800 years before Islam. They didn't fast more than one day a year, if that.

"In Zoroastrianism or Mazdaism, however, fasting has been implicitly rejected throughout the faith’s history. Zoroastrian doctrine perceives no disjunction between spirit and matter along lines of good and evil; rather, it regards both as essential for achieving piety and both as susceptible to unrighteousness. Hence, Zoroastrians believe that the body should function as a means by which the soul can fight evil and regard any action that physically weakens the body as sinful. Moreover, sex is viewed as essential for procreation which brings more believers into the world. Standard or Young Avestan texts such as the Vidēvdād (Avesta, ed. Geldner, 3.33, 4.48, 7.70) emphasized that eating was essential for life, claimed consumption of meat enhanced spiritual perception, and suggested hunger and thirst caused much suffering. Pahlavi commentaries continued this anti-ascetic theme, stressing the notion of moderation or paymān between gluttony and privation in partaking of food, drink, and sex. Piety was said to result from not fretting about moderate consumption, and deviation from this mean was equated with concupiscence (Dēnkard, ed. Madan, pp. 267, 295)." https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/fasting

Then Mani came along, introduced fasting. It was the main rival to Christianity before Islam came along. Both Islam and Christianity are heavily influenced by Mani and vice versa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism


> Have you ever occurred to you that it might be the other way around? There was always one monotheistic religion and God, but then things got sidetracked and people started making stuff up.

After 30 years of trying, I'm pretty sure I can't believe any religion was ever true. It's literally all made up, and the only bits that survive are the unfalsifiable parts or rely on nostalgia or ignorance.


always embrace the idea, never embrace the people. Eid Mubarak!


Khair Mubarak!


Eid Mubarak. Lovely to see this on HN


Eid mubarak fellow HNers. Hope you enjoy your day of tradition!


Eid mubarak gençler!


Eid Mubarak :)


Eid mubarak!


Eid Mubarak to you too akhi!!


Mash-Allah Eid Mubarak!


Eid Mubarak ♡ everyone


Eid Mubarak everyone!


Alhamdulilah!


Eid sayeed!!


Eid mubarak!


Eid Mubarak!


Eid Mubarak!


Eid Mubarak!


Eid Mubarak


Happy Easter everyone, belated


Eid mubarak my fellow Hners !


Eid Mubarak.


I am a bit confused: are we going to get more similar posts (which is tangent to some proselytism, under the premise of well wishing?) for each and every religious faith major event around the globe?

I am saying this as a former believer (and holding no grudge), definitely aware of the fine line between sharing and pushing cultural items, and balancing the two rather equally in a diverse team.

EDIT: actually, it's a topic in itself in a matter of company/team management. I saw a similar concern grow in one of my older team in a previous job, because the company "inclusion and diversity" department held a _very_ unbalanced and awkward take in this regard, talking a lot about some religious/cultural items, and ignoring quite a few others (from different equally present countries of origin and faiths), actually resulting in a fracture in the self-perceived image of the team. That's really a delicate matter.


It's going too far to interpret this as "tangent to proselytism". People can wish each other well without coming close to that.

The occasional celebratory post is fine on HN. If it were to become repetitive, it would get tedious quickly and we would downweight such posts in keeping with standard practice (see [1] and [2] about that).

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...


Humbly suggest that HN converts these types of temporal event posts into megathreads a la reddit so there is one root to the discussion, and down-weights one line replies that are simply repeating the sentiment of the original poster ('happy X to you too', etc).

Don't know if that is possible of course. I think the HN readership would welcome a way to use a post to explore cultural aspects, ask respectful questions, etc, but dont need a slurry of one line celebrations.


I agree that they can add up to a lot of noise but at the same time their spirit is nice enough that it feels churlish to try to negate them. In cases like this we usually go by what pg wrote 15 years ago:

Empty comments can be ok if they're positive. There's nothing wrong with submitting a comment saying just "Thanks." What we especially discourage are comments that are empty and negative—comments that are mere name-calling.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html


For my part, I did interpret it as clear proselytism:

> A note on Ramadan. To those interested in intermittent fasting, longevity, and coming back to a more human experience not drowning in technology, food and consumerism I would say check it out! After over 20 years of doing it I'm still learning something new every year, or I should say, unlearning bad habits we've created for ourselves as a society through abundance.


I see what you mean but I read it as more of an enthusiasm for a general category of practice and not a call to convert to a specific religion or cause.

The post was just a nice thing, a complete change of pace, and an opportunity to have an interesting conversation about something we normally wouldn't. That's on topic for HN. It doesn't mean the same thing would be on topic tomorrow—in fact it wouldn't, because avoiding repetition is one of the main functions here.

It was also a garish opportunity for flamewar, which plenty of commenters unfortunately took advantage of. But that's how the internet, and human nature, work.


You could also have interpreted it as advice: "been there, learnt something" is what is clearly written. Guidelines: «Assume good faith».


Well noted, makes sense this way, thanks for the feedback!


I disagree; this is a clear case of "Proselytism" since there is no actual need for it in this forum. Nothing of value has been presented to discuss/debate/argue/etc.

If the only criteria for allowing posts like these is "People can wish each other well without coming close to that" then HN can easily be flooded with junk posts from every single Religious (and any other) group (Real/Imaginary and Bonkers) for every single day of the year.


There has always been a place for a certain amount of such posts on HN, going all the way back to the beginning. It has always been fine as part of the mix and I don't see why it should be restricted to one religion or culture.

If people start posting too many of them, we'll downweight them the same way we would any other repetitive pattern—not because we have any problem with their particular topic but because repetition quickly becomes tedious. (And users would flag them increasingly heavily in any case.)


[flagged]


Religion-related topics are not anathema here, although religious flamewar is, and of course it's not easy to keep the two separate. Religion has been (and is) such a big part of humanity that it would be inconsistent with HN's core value of intellectual curiosity to try to declare it all off topic (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...).

p.s. Please let's not go into name-calling like "fruit-cakery". You can make your substantive points without that!


Sorry for calling it fruit-cakery. I can't edit my comment now, or I would. I'd leave the rest. I think celebrating religion has no place here, but I'm clearly in the minority. Do I have an intellectual curiosity? Yes. But I'm also curious about cancer. The self-congratulatory feel-good tone of this post and its comments don't sit right with me, but obviously, a bunch of people are into it.


[flagged]


Your comment proves what I'm saying. It's obviously name-calling to refer to people's beliefs as nutty-crazy-idiotic. In fact the latter word is the canonical example the HN guidelines give for this: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Thanks for the interesting etymology!


Dang, respectfully, you should ask him what he means by it because I honestly read it differently.

I think he is calling the well wishing weird/phony as most people here are irreligious / not muslims / haven't had a clue about Eid Mubarak until yesterday.

Anyway, I can't be sure either but my point is it absolutely would not have occurred to me until you said it. Caveat: English is not my first language but obviously is a bit far fetched.


We have to moderate by effects, not intent (which often we can't know); moreover we have to moderate by effects based on past experience. In terms of effects based on past experience I promise you that referring to religion this way is the sort of thing that leads to flamewars. It is not a close call.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...


That is quite a bit more nuanced and reasonable that the original moderation feedback given. You certainly appeared to know his intent when you outright accused him of name calling.

> p.s. Please let's not go into name-calling like "fruit-cakery". You can make your substantive points without that!

Heed your own advice?


Ramadan has little to do with intermittent fasting: the former is a religious prescription enforced by law in some countries [1], the latter is completely up to the individual.

Happy Eid.

[1] https://www-lepoint-fr.translate.goog/monde/algerie-2-ans-de...


Intermittent fasting is when you fast intermittently


Well if going 10 hours (say in Scotland in winter) without food is "fasting", I do that pretty much every day, I rarely eat or drink between 2200 and 0900, and rarely eat between 2000 and about 1230

Not convinced that not drinking water during the day is a good idea, especially in hot countries


You're right, most people do...

> Breakfast is the first meal of the day usually eaten in the morning. The word in English refers to breaking the fasting period of the previous night.


To be honest, "breakfast" was more probably originally meant as "breaking the discipline" (see form "fasten"), and only then translated to the action without general involvement of discipline.


https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/breakfast-adults-sk...

> One in four adults skip breakfast most days, says survey


Which means they're participating in a comparatively longer fast


I roomed with two Saudis in college. They just become nocturnal and sleep all day.


Sounds like the Eruv lines some Jewish communities put up to get away with "breaking the rules", surely it somewhat misses the point


At least it doesn't seem like the law in question was specifically about enforcing Ramadan, rather a sinister abuse of the general "Blasphamy law"[1] which exists in some non-muslim countries too.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20171211105140/http://freethough...


Fasting is one of the 5 pillars of Islam. Maybe someone could explain what "non-intermittent" fasting would be?


I'd say the difference is if there is some regularity to it.

Intermittent fasting can be fasting Monday to Friday and only eating in the weekends like how I think one HN-er described his 5/2 diet.

It can be OMAD (one meal a day) or something else. The main thing is you fast and stop fasting repeatedly.

None-intermittent fasting is when you just skip food for a day like I did last week or for a few days like I did as a teenager.


An important distinction is while fasting for Ramadan, you can't ingest anything at all, including water. Unlike intermittent fasting where practitioners might still have 0 calorie coffee to stay stimulated, and water to stay hydrated.


Agreed. I think it is correct to say that Ramadan fasting is intermittent but intermittent fasting is not Ramadan fasting, except the subset of fasting that is Muslims fasting during Ramadan.

I also think some others, among them Christians, fast completely.

Personally I am Christian but when I fast, the vast majority of the times it has been because I was bored or needed to focus, and I didn't punish myself by breaking fast once a day but just went without food a day or two or three until I became bored of that too or family demanded I ate.


> > enforced by law in some countries

"Enforced by law"...if you want to eat in the privacy of your home that's between yourself and Allah.

And besides...lockdowns were also enforced by law, but the law will never have enough men to police all the population, it would require a 1:1 ratio or thereabout.

That's why the physical world is important as opposed to the virtual world where the ratio can be reduced drastically, that's also why I never understood the fixation with the 2nd amendment beyond a certain treshold more stuff and provisions are only a waste of money.


I think the point is: should we really be enforcing religious laws in our societies? Seems deeply coercive and unethical


There will always be somebody who believes in their stuff so much that will try to enforce on others.

And that type of personality usually also aggregates in groups.

You are essentially able to escape from them as long as you are in the physical world, but in the virtual world everything can be policed much more easily.


You can eat in practically every muslim country during ramadan, if you aren't muslim. It will be hard to find open restaurants during the day, but no one will bother a non-muslim about eating openly.


(Can we get this un-flagged?)


[flagged]


This is baiting a religious flamewar. Please don't do that here—it's the last thing we need. In this thread of all places.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


[flagged]


That comment is still in the flamewar style. Score-settling is not in keeping with the spirit of intellectual curiosity that is supposed to animate this site: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

As it happens, you could answer your question in a few seconds: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... But the idea of measuring these things to draw conclusions about who supposedly has the upper hand is just another version of the same conflict. We're trying to take a completely different approach to...everything on this site.


[flagged]


No religious flamewar on HN, please. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


ok, sorry


[flagged]


Please don't do this here.


Sorry please delete


Nope, no fap.


Deal breaker.

What if a friend or a robot does the fapping for you


Same thing. The idea is go without a lot of the comforts we are accustomed to in order to experience life as those less fortunate do so that we may be more empathetic towards our fellow humans.


Technically it's no orgasm.


Just a reminder that Mohammed raped a nine-year-old girl, and women and girls under Islam are still suffering to this day under this perverse, misogynistic belief system. Eid Mubarak.


Please don't take HN into religious flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


If there were an HN thread celebrating some holiday in Scientology or FLDS or the Westboro Baptist Church, would you hold people to these same rules and flag any criticism?

The founder of Islam was far worse than the founders of any of the religions I listed. Why does he get a pass? Just because billions of people think he was a good person?


You're doing what I just asked the GP not to do.


So critical discussion isn't allowed around religion because it would be "a flame war"? This is so odd.


This greeting shouldnt be on HN in the first place.


[flagged]


Religious flamewar is not welcome here and will get you banned, so please don't do it again.

We've had to ask you about this before - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24682545 - and similar things:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27497529 (June 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27046182 (May 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26935566 (April 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22836417 (April 2020)

Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules?


OK, will do. That summary helps putting things on perspective, thanks.


[flagged]


Religious flamewar is not allowed here, so please don't post like this to HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


Read the comment again.


If you don't want flame wars then why you allow posts like this "Tell HN"? It's the nature of religions to dogmatically tell people how to live so any religions posts will undoubtedly attract flame wars; might as well post about Donald Trump trial and not expected political flame wars.


The onus is on commenters not to post inflammatory/aggressive/flamewar things, even when they find a topic activating. The idea on HN is to find the capacity to discuss topics, even divisive topics, thoughtfully and respectfully.

That's not so hard, since it's always an option simply not to post anything, and there is always plenty of other material to pay attention to.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


About the "not post anything" part, is not as easy as you think, I hold myself accounttable to my actions and the lack thereof, so like many here of my most valued principles is to do good, as in "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing", so sometimes I weight the likelihood of being banned (or just disliked, in general) against any positive impact my comment might have even if extremely tiny, specially when discussing life and death issues such as religion, or in the words of Minoo Majidi: "If I don't go out and protest, who else will?"


If you feel that way, there are far more important things to do than post on an internet forum.


There is always something more important, but we all can't be doing that, one powerful way to make a difference is pushing from all the angles and places, not only the ones deemed "important", that is it how it has always been, many one important parts of history started by two unimportant strangers socializing in some unimportant place.

Anyway, thanks for your work, I may disagree with some of your decisions but know most of your actions help make this forum worth reading.


> By the way, I'm in my period, I'm impure. I can't Eid Mubarak :(

Hey, I'm having a hard time finding a reference for this. Can you source this claim that someone on their period can't celebrate Eid al-Fitr?


[flagged]


I see where the confusion is coming from. Other hadiths in the same book seem to suggest this is moreso because blood itself is considered unclean. For instance:

> Sahih al-Bukhari 325 (Book 6, Hadith 30) #322

> Narrated 'Aisha: Fatima bint Abi Hubaish asked the Prophet, "I got persistent bleeding (in between the periods) and do not become clean. Shall I give up prayers?" He replied, "No, this is from a blood vessel. Give up the prayers only for the days on which you usually get the menses and then take a bath and offer your prayers".

"Assume good faith" would suggest that at the time the holy texts were written, bleeding was frequently associated with infection and disease. Germ theory came over a millenia later.


Islam gave rights to woman at a time when they were treated as property everywhere else in the world.

In modern time, I have never heard of someone disqualifying menstruating women from celebrating. Though they are not expected to fast or pray during that time. My wife missed the first and last week this month -__-


>Islam gave rights to woman at a time when they were treated as property everywhere else in the world.

false on all accounts.


[flagged]


That is beyond the pale. As we've warned you before, and as you've continued to break the site guidelines, I've banned the account.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.


I was with you until your second sentence. The out of nowhere racism makes your original point (which I agree with) moot


>Or maybe just another assblasted indian barely suppressing their hatred by eternally seething about muslims.

I am not an Indian but merely an expat. But this comment is rather interesting


It is consistent with the scope of intellectual curiosity. With the occasion of a kind greeting to all.


Dan, are you sure you want to keep this level of incivility on the board?

Think again, if it is really proper to not encourage exchange and encourage instead perplexing """performance art""". Too similar to the directly anti-axiological "how does that make you feel".


[flagged]


Religious flamewar will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are, so please don't post like this to HN again.

Edit: we've been having to warn you about breaking the site guidelines for many years:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21477839 (Nov 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21477824 (Nov 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21358557 (Oct 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18787962 (Dec 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17787132 (Aug 2018)

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.


I can see how much of an asshole I can be in some of those comments, but I can see at least one where you were a bit more stricter than was called for, I will not deny that such opinion is likely to be biased, ha.


[flagged]


Please don't use scarequotes to demean a religion and its adherents. Being welcoming of others with varied backgrounds is wonderful and something I'm hopeful more of us can do on HN; it's a great way to give broader perspectives a home and give us all more opportunities, both to connect as well as to build.


And yet here you are, reading and participating in a thread for which you do not come here.


which doesn’t disprove their comments.

what exactly are you trying to say?


I never claimed in any of my replies that I refrain from participating in topics even if they disgust me. That interpretetion was all yours.


[flagged]


why are nerds like this


Poor social skills


Most aren't.


[dead]


was it worth creating a new account for this comment?




Consider applying for YC's Spring batch! Applications are open till Feb 11.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: