the crappy marker comment is ridiculous. While it was somewhat entertaining in the story, I cannot take seriously the implied claim that all companies with whiteboards give crappy markers to interviewees
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you take me too seriously sir :)
Asking people to whiteboard things is appropriate because software developers sketch things ALL THE TIME.
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Right, but what do they sketch. is it code? or is it a myriad of other things like ui's, application flow. object/db schemas? etc? Developers don't spend all day whiteboarding, so why should an entire interview process consist of that?
I'm not saying that you're saying that, I'm just getting back to the central point of the original article
Now as to doubly-linked lists, you can’t cherry-pick an inappropriate question and blame it on whiteboards. Asking someone to whiteboard a doubly-linked list has about as much value as asking them to implement it in code. It’s fine for FizzBuzz testing, but of course we don’t implement doubly linked lists 40 hours a week, so beyond a simple filter, it’s a bad question
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We're not disagreeing on that, but in the article that is a complaint. That a CRUD web application shop (for example) is pulling you into an interview and asking about compilers and linked lists when its not related to what they do from day to day (I exaggerate with the compilers, but you get my point right?)
There are good whiteboard questions, and what they all have in common is that implementing a certain idea in code would take too long and/or obscure the underlying idea with accidental complexity.
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We agree. Like I said, white boarding has its place, I just zeroed in on your chef remark because it seemed a little odd to me that you'd suggest that even chefs, who hardly every use white boards (to my knowledge) would have a use for whiteboarding/sketching.
In an (kinda) related note, I think software companies could do with a bit of humility. A good number of places I've interviewed at are disrespectful of the people who come in to interview with them and tend to treat them with disdain until they show they are clearly smarter than they are. I think theres a part of hacker culture that encourages that sort of thing, but the market is tight, and getting the best people isn't a case of just putting up a help wanted ad, and having people jump through hoops any longer, because they have other options.
I failed to impart my lack of reverence with my comment about filtering. The sick thing is, there used to be trick interviews where the interviewer would deliberately not ask the person to sit down, or whatever, and test to see whether they “take command” of the situation. The correct response to a crappy marker is probably to ask if their server infrastructure is as good as their software design tooling.
You have another fantastic point:
In an (kinda) related note, I think software companies could do with a bit of humility. A good number of places I've interviewed at are disrespectful of the people who come in to interview with them and tend to treat them with disdain until they show they are clearly smarter than they are. I think theres a part of hacker culture that encourages that sort of thing, but the market is tight, and getting the best people isn't a case of just putting up a help wanted ad, and having people jump through hoops any longer, because they have other options.
This is a negative part of some development cultures, and it cuts both ways. I have seen some arrogant shops, and some arrogant people coming in for an interview. I don’t want to lick your boots or have mine licked. If the premise isn’t “Hey, we might enjoy working together as colleagues with mutual respect,” why are we going through the exercise?
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you take me too seriously sir :)
Asking people to whiteboard things is appropriate because software developers sketch things ALL THE TIME.
---------------------------------
Right, but what do they sketch. is it code? or is it a myriad of other things like ui's, application flow. object/db schemas? etc? Developers don't spend all day whiteboarding, so why should an entire interview process consist of that?
I'm not saying that you're saying that, I'm just getting back to the central point of the original article
Now as to doubly-linked lists, you can’t cherry-pick an inappropriate question and blame it on whiteboards. Asking someone to whiteboard a doubly-linked list has about as much value as asking them to implement it in code. It’s fine for FizzBuzz testing, but of course we don’t implement doubly linked lists 40 hours a week, so beyond a simple filter, it’s a bad question
--------
We're not disagreeing on that, but in the article that is a complaint. That a CRUD web application shop (for example) is pulling you into an interview and asking about compilers and linked lists when its not related to what they do from day to day (I exaggerate with the compilers, but you get my point right?)
There are good whiteboard questions, and what they all have in common is that implementing a certain idea in code would take too long and/or obscure the underlying idea with accidental complexity.
------------------
We agree. Like I said, white boarding has its place, I just zeroed in on your chef remark because it seemed a little odd to me that you'd suggest that even chefs, who hardly every use white boards (to my knowledge) would have a use for whiteboarding/sketching.
In an (kinda) related note, I think software companies could do with a bit of humility. A good number of places I've interviewed at are disrespectful of the people who come in to interview with them and tend to treat them with disdain until they show they are clearly smarter than they are. I think theres a part of hacker culture that encourages that sort of thing, but the market is tight, and getting the best people isn't a case of just putting up a help wanted ad, and having people jump through hoops any longer, because they have other options.