A big issue is that finance continues to draw the bright, ambitious and the greedy away.
Somebody who founds a company worth $5 billion is royalty in Silicon Valley. Around Wall Street you'll find fresh-faced kids with nothing more than degrees from Andover and Yale running hedge funds bigger than that. Much more money for much less work, risk and accomplishment.
You just can't make enough money from startups to impress people in NYC.
Other than that I'll say that NYC has the most formal dress code of anywhere I've been. You can show up in "hacker costume" that includes clean denim and a t-shirt that fits in any town other than NYC. In NYC, people ~will~ hold it against you if you don't wear a button down, tie and all that.
My motto is "when in rome", but it's not an attitude that's welcoming of tech talent.
Funny, I don't know what NYC you experienced, but the one I live in has a much wider variety of people than the types you've mentioned.
I know plenty of people that go to work in jeans and a t-shirt, and no one holds it against them. Personally, I prefer to dress a little bit nicer; not to mention that (other than during the summer), the weather dictates the dress code to a large extent.
I could go on with more counter examples, but the point is, you have a very narrow view of what NYC is actually like.
* P.S., re: Coffee: Try the Ace Hotel lobby on 29th between Broadway and 5th. There is an independently-run Stumptown Coffee shop attached (best coffee in NYC) and I'm there virtually every Sunday working on my laptop. With their free wifi. Along with about 20 other people doing the same thing.
Around Wall Street you'll find fresh-faced kids with nothing more than degrees from Andover and Yale running hedge funds bigger than that [$5B].
Where do these numbers come from? They are wildly incorrect.
George Soros is only about $20B. Bridgewater is about $40B. JP Morgan Asset Management is $30B. Citadel is $10B. (Numbers are all from rough recollection, may have changed since I last heard them.)
Besides, being the founder (and hence presumably the owner of a significant slice) of $N is much, much better than being merely the guy who manages $N of someone else's money.
There's definitely a point here somewhere, though. New York City has a way of making you feel poor unless you're very, very wealthy. A few million doesn't cut it.
> "New York City has a way of making you feel poor unless you're very, very wealthy. A few million doesn't cut it."
SF is very much the same, though to a somewhat lesser extent. Hasn't stopped it from being a tech hub though, so I'm not sure if that's the deciding factor.
Yes and no. Certainly compared to the real world, San Francisco is a place where you need a lot of money to do anything (or rather, to have a place to live) but the psychological factors aren't there. I can easily go into the best restaurants in town, drink at the best bars, hang out at the best nightclubs, and I don't feel like I'm out of place or that I could be having a much better time if only I'd spent a lot more money. That's not a feeling I get in New York, Los Angeles or (worst of all) Las Vegas (even though I'm keenly aware that I probably am richer than all of the folks who are trying very hard to look rich in Las Vegas).
I think the two of you are using different definitions. Soros indeed has assets of X billion dollars. That kid from Yale has assets of 50 million that he has leveraged 100 times to be able to control positions valuing at 5 billion.
I totally agree that finance draws top talent (and that I really wish it wouldn't), but I wouldn't say that a lot of those folks work less hard. I spent 4 years on Wall Street (loosely construed) and spent time with some of the hardest workers I've ever encountered. The earnings they generate, however, are definitely far above startup folks, on average.
It is interesting, though, to look at the tails of that distribution. That's where you find the massive wealth generation. And, instructively, at those outer limits, you'll find that the top of the top is populated by entrepreneurs as much as it is by finance guys. Bill Gates, Ellison, Zuck, etc. compare to the Warren Buffets, John Paulsons, and their compatriots.
Good point - important to look at the tail. Also, a lot of these burnt out finance kids are finding tech interesting - but so many just want to become a vc. I think its a personality issue too - have had so many mind numbing conversations with super smart NYC finance whizes who want to start a company but the template line is: I have the concept, i'll hire a tech guy, give him 5% equity, and we will conquer the world. Very very few are doing it to solve a problem / create a company - the primary focus is still what it was while running the hedge fund.
Having said that - there is so much good stuff coming up in NYC too. Good signs.
NYC and SF are places that attract people from all over the world. The local talent pool is dwarfed by the worldwide talent pool. They even draw talent from each other.
So really it's a question of whether finance is drawing people away from entrepreneurship in general. Given that finance is the most reliable road to riches these days, I'd say certainly it is, but entrepreneurship offers far more in the way of creative rewards and the opportunity to "change the world".
NYC's competitiveness with the valley probably doesn't have much to do with how much money or respect is in finance. Rather it's about the quality of the ecosystem for entrepreneurship. NYC could easily become competitive with SV without Wall Street having to take any hit at all. If the absolute opportunity for entrepreneurship were better in NYC then it would be just as attractive to potential entrepreneurs, except for the few who want to be "big fish", but that type of attitude is not conducive to success as an entrepreneur anyway.
Finance is a big draw for sure, but financial companies have a really bad reputation as places to work. Every hacker in New York understands that finance pays well, but otherwise sucks compares to every other place you might work - hours, dress code, working environment, etc. are all worse.
I will agree that people are generally more greedy here than anywhere else on the planet. And there is a certain segment of the city that only respects people with lots of money, certainly to a degree you won't encounter elsewhere. But that doesn't describe everyone in New York.
It is true that in some contexts people dress very formally here compared to other cities, but my experience is that the startups in New York have a dress code that is just as informal as startups elsewhere. If you saw anyone wearing a tie in an office, I can pretty much guarantee that it wasn't the office of a startup, even in New York.
My impression* has never been that you're expected dress nicely, just presentable. You might not be able to get away with wearing that ragged pair of jeans and old tshirt that you happen to really like, but that doesn't mean button-up shirts and slacks. Just something that, you know, isn't fraying at the seams.
* From growing up just next to NYC and making my way into the city pretty often.
> P.S. - Cheap and accessible fiber. Come on NYC, we need that if we’re going to win.
Fiber coverage is pretty good now. Many buildings still don't have it, but it's in most neighborhoods; my girlfriend has Fios and she's way out in Queens, but I don't have it down in the East Village 'cause it isn't run into my building yet. That said, fiber isn't the only game in town -- Roadrunner in NYC has DOCSIS 3, and $100 gets you a 50Mbit connection, which I absolutely adore.
Yeah I have verizon fios in the lower east side(albeit a new building) its probably the fastest internet i've seen. You can either move to a building with it or get a virtual office in the city that has fiber. Don't think its a big limiting factor in nyc.
whenever i read comments about nyc's best developers ultimately being sucked into the vortex of finance, i want to gag.
i can only assume that these commenters haven't spent much quality time here (or in finance - which is, for the most part, not glamorous, but rather soul-sucking)...or they have spent some time here and have a very limited view of the city.
nyc is more than just wall street, "silicon alley" and midtown. i've worked in several places (boston, london, atlanta, san fran)...and i've never come across as rich a mixture of people who "make stuff" as i have in brooklyn.
on a related note: it'll be interesting if stanford ends up winning the bid to open a campus in NYC. (i think the navy yard location would be perfect!)
btw, great coffee (and serendipity-friendly) spots in brooklyn: gorilla, cafe grumpy, ...a new place called rucola (serves stumptown), and many many more.
Seeing as this is the top comment, could someone please back up this argument beyond personal anecdote? At least the people arguing the other direction are pointing at actual companies.
i'll throw down a few off the top of my head: foursquare, 10gen, etsy, a cool one called makerbot, stackoverflow, etc, etc., etc. ...but there are lots of little guys you probably haven't heard of yet popping out of columbia/nyu or the great design schools like pratt/etc. or coming out of the larger companies around here. it's actually an exciting time to be in the city...
listen, i love the valley. ...i just want people to know that my nyc is a creative and fun one. ...and you can live a happy/rich/fascinating existence here without touching a line of fintech code.
And you've gotten your point across nicely. But that's not the conversation here. It's whether it can catch up to the Valley anytime soon, a different question entirely than whether there are cool little companies scattered around. Here in San Francisco, you end up inside a tech company if you so much as sneeze. Twitter is moving across the street from my apartment. When I walk to get a sandwich I pass by several world-class tech companies and a dozen startups. New York isn't even in the same league. Maybe someday it will be... I hope so!
good points...i definitely get chills (in a good way) going down 101 or walking around soma, etc., feeling the energy of the tech companies all around me. it was definitely a motivating factor when i worked there. (lo those many years ago.)
(btw, the other comments seem to focus more on the mythical finance vortex here, which i'd love to debunk someday...hence the sidetrack.)
as for being in the "same league," i guess i dunno know what that means, really - from the perspective of a person trying to get an idea off the ground. (and i write this having started/sold one myself, been an early member of a company that went public, been part of a flame-out...and been through plenty of ups and downs over my startup-oriented tech career).
both have great access to capital...great engineers...pently of startups (not a smattering) and plenty of spots for serendipitous meetings with interesting people (we got plenty 'o those). ...i think the rest is pointless d#ck measuring when it comes down to it. any location is really what u make of it anyway - as long as you're not in a bad one.
don't get me wrong, i'd love to just bump into ron conway or PG at my local coffee spot. perhaps they'd visit the good people of brooklyn someday...over a latte with a side of capacitors at the local hacker collective. ;-)
That sometimes true and you've hit the head on the nail in some cases -- but it also depends on what you're making. NYC really respects creatives -- be they actors or designers or writers in a way that you wouldn't see in the valley.In fact while Hollywood respects the hit making skills of creatives, I think NYC is unique in respecting creativity itself.
I agree - NYC definitely respects flamboyantly creative people, who are just as interested in making their image as in making their art (for whatever value of art), but "hackers" don't really seem to fit that mould.
Sure, we need more of these around. I'm just happy there's a place like this that fits the bill right in my neighborhood. It's more of a cafe than a coffee shop, but that didn't stop the owner from putting dual power plugs in between every couple of seats at the bar. And getting a darn fast wifi connection.
That they make some of the best drip coffee in the area, and serve brunch 7 days a week, combined with affordable prices...
The owner has a coffee shop too, but it's too cramped to work in all day. He recognized that people were starting to try to do that there - and kept it in mind when he opened up this cafe. During a typical weekday, the bar is filled with people with laptops open.
I don't know to where OP is referring, but I've found Table 12 on Ave A & 12th to be a decent place to work. When I've gone during the day on weekdays it's usually half-empty, has free wifi, and the staff hasn't seemed to mind my loitering (though I do buy stuff).
I think Austin is the next tech hub. The weather is better than NYC, vibrant food scene, large pool of talent/graduating students, readily available cheap/24hr food and coffee (especially near campus).
I just got to Austin, and may be leaving at the beginning of the year, but as a city, the place is unreal. It's now bigger than San Francisco, but still feels like a town, which I prefer... Nothing like the Valley, but they say 2011 was kind of a watershed moment for the Austin tech scene with three web-based companies going public (shift away from enterprise tech). We'll see how that goes back into the ecosystem...
During Internet 1.0, Austin was a tech hub. Dell, and a bunch of tech consulting / software companies. There office parks outside of the city that used to house the tech scene. Inside the city seems to be where the new action is. Another plus for Austin is the labor pool is overqualified for the job opportunities (according to my Austinite friend). If it were #2 instead of New York, I'd move there in a second.
Walk into a coffee shop in Palo Alto (say…Coupa). Pull out your computer, open your gmail or git or twitter. Now leave and try another shop. And another. Go try that in NYC before researching exactly which shop has WiFi.
This is easier to do in Williamsburg, Brooklyn than Palo Alto
edit: to prove the point, here's the free wifi list from yelp for wburg and greenpoint just to show how common it is
I've lived in both NY and Silicon Valley. I think the best description of the difference in mentality is:
In NYC, if you can make a million dollars cool, but it's even better if you screw somebody out of a million at the same time. In Silicon Valley, if you make a million dollars cool, but it's even better if you help somebody else make a million at the same time.
look at all those happy/helpful people, ready to volunteer their time and emotional shares to help you get your project off the ground. (and this is only one great hacker spot in the city.)
in my experience (~10 years in manhattan+brooklyn)...these are the kinds of people/groups that are here...looking to build stuff and have fun.
...but, of course, in a place as large as this, you'll find all types. (as you do in the valley too, really.)
Walk into a coffee shop in Palo Alto (say…Coupa). Pull out your computer, open your gmail or git or twitter. Go try that in NYC before researching exactly which shop has WiFi.
Interesting point. Was at Coupa just this weekend. Couldn't get Wifi :)
I haven't found NYC Wifi to be a problem. Just the other day I was in Penn and got an emergency phone call. I just hopped into Stackbucks and did my thing with no problems at all. While there was no seating, the Wifi was just fine.
Now, if you're looking for a place to work you might want to look into co-working instead. In NYC the shops just can't afford to have you sitting there taking up space all day for $10 worth of coffee.
Other than how it affects your chance of success, this seems a little silly. #1 #2 .. who cares? Why get all tribal about your city? There are tons of industries here in NYC, so if you are targeting your offering to larger businesses, then there are worse places than NYC to be close to your customers. If not, and you are doing 'Social Toilet' or whatever, then it might make sense to go elsewhere.
It is hard to find seats before midnight, as it is full of students, but it is as nice as a starbucks get.
Since it is so popular, starbucks tried to open another 24hr location close by, but there was a lot of opposition from local coffee places, so they didn't get a permit.
The Summit opens till midnight on most nights, which is still not as late as I'd like. It's really surprising, to me anyways, that this town really doesn't have a late-night culture.
Starbucks in San Bruno is 24 hours and has free wifi. Only drawback is it's really hard to find a seat in the evening as there's a bunch of students studying.
Does it matter so much, when you can put your servers in a local co-lo facility which will have fiber terminations for the big ISPs? As long as your office has reliable connections, I don't see the problem.
But would you know that if you weren't already plugged into the tech scene? I don't recall seeing a sign outside of Foursquare's building. Etsy had a handmade sign taped to some windows you couldn't see from the street unless you knew to look for it. 111 8th Ave doesn't have a big Google sign out front. There's no big Vimeo or OkCupid, etc., etc., signs outside IAC's headquarters. I don't believe Tumblr has a sign out front. In fact, the only tech company sign I recall seeing on the side of a building in NYC was Squarespace before they moved (I don't know if their new place has a sign). Compare that to walking around Soma or driving down the 101.
Most people probably have no idea there are well-known tech companies based here.
Somebody who founds a company worth $5 billion is royalty in Silicon Valley. Around Wall Street you'll find fresh-faced kids with nothing more than degrees from Andover and Yale running hedge funds bigger than that. Much more money for much less work, risk and accomplishment.
You just can't make enough money from startups to impress people in NYC.
Other than that I'll say that NYC has the most formal dress code of anywhere I've been. You can show up in "hacker costume" that includes clean denim and a t-shirt that fits in any town other than NYC. In NYC, people ~will~ hold it against you if you don't wear a button down, tie and all that.
My motto is "when in rome", but it's not an attitude that's welcoming of tech talent.