> We need to be in an international military crisis in order that basic values of privacy prevail at home? ... That does not speak well of our quiescent "western values"
It also doesn't speak ill of those values, it says nothing about the values. You're conflating two separate matters: the values, and the effort required to hold/protect them.
Liberty requires a persistent effort to maintain against politicians, malevolent actors generally, that lust after increased power (for themselves and frequently the state as well).
It makes sense that that would be a process of erosion and (hopefully) rejuvination across years, decades, generations, centuries - as the counter forces battle. If you're really fortunate you live in a system that makes it a lot more difficult for the power-seeking politicians to trample on your rights.
Just because something of value requires effort to keep or maintain, that doesn't debase its value or otherwise speak to how great or how little the value is. Very valuable things often require an enormous investment to acquire and keep over time. At all times entropy is trying to destroy well ordered systems (eg democratic, constitutional, rights-protecting governments), it takes a huge amount of resources just to forestall that and you can never stop investing into it for long.
It also takes an enormous investment of resources to maintain authoritarian, anti-rights systems. They can never stop using force to oppress the population, they have to constantly crush the spirit of the population. They have to divert human potential on a persistent basis toward destruction, oppression, violent actions against the citizenship, actions inspiring fear/terror/dread. They can never stop spewing propaganda meant to keep the population in check, docile, in fear, etc.
That systems require active effort and mental attention to maintain, tells you very little about whether they're good or bad, the same goes for values a person holds (which also require effort to maintain), or the values a culture of people broadly holds.
> Liberty requires a persistent effort to maintain against politicians, malevolent actors generally
Politicians do not in general work to abolish democracy. The vast majority, in democratic countries, accepts and supports it. To just label them "malevolent actors" without even feeling the need to explain it is nihilistic cynicism: if all you ever do is scream at the top of your lung that someone is a corrupt scumbag, they will either adapt and become someone like that or quit.
Thanks for a thoughtful reply adventured. As I said, it gives me an
uneasy/weird feeling, which is to say I haven't quite unpacked it
myself yet. Your response is helping me.
> It also doesn't speak ill of those values
Well actually it does, at least in that it highlights them as
inconsistent. Clearly my issue is that values prone to change
according to circumstance are weaker, as generally one holds
consistent values higher than fickle ones. However, your further
points are interesting and deserve thought.
> You're conflating two separate matters, the values, and the effort
required to hold/protect them.
Perhaps in a short, pithy comment I'm not taking time to distinguish
the values (which I love and live by, and believe most of my
countrymen uphold) and the laziness by which some fail to consistently
and robustly stand up for them.
> Liberty requires a persistent effort to maintain against politicians,
malevolent actors generally
Absolutely, and would you agree that we've slipped dreadfully in that
duty in recent years?
> Just because something of value requires effort to keep or maintain,
that doesn't debase its value or otherwise speak or how great or how
little the value is.
I am glad you think that, and we agree. I am not sure if you thought I
said otherwise?
> Very valuable things often require an enormous investment to acquire
and keep over time.
Like previous wars in which my family have fought at great cost.
> At all times entropy is trying to destroy well ordered systems
No. Sorry. That's too simplistic a take. I'm not talking about the
constant gardening required to maintain structures of value, I am
alluding to the malevolent domestic forces who would sell our hard won
freedom, democracy and liberal values down the swanny for their own
aggrandisement and profit when it suits them, and sing a different
song when virtue signalling calls.
Let me try to be clearer what I am attacking here. It is sloppy and
selective values. It is a laziness that lies somewhere between "sworn
enemies unite against a common foe", and a prejudiced framing effect.
We're all very happy to cheer on Tor, VPNs or other instruments that
circumvent tyranny, so long as it's not _our_ tyranny. All of us have
benefited hugely from the freedoms immanent therein. We built these
tools (US Navy), and the internet itself (DARPA), in pursuit of
spreading the same values that we no longer have the stomach to
robustly defend here.
Yet when a tyrant goes crazy in Overthereistan we're all sweetness
and light and our digital "doors are always open for freedom". Those
double standards are not a good look.
I need more time to think about it, but maybe what irks me here is
simple hypocrisy.
It also doesn't speak ill of those values, it says nothing about the values. You're conflating two separate matters: the values, and the effort required to hold/protect them.
Liberty requires a persistent effort to maintain against politicians, malevolent actors generally, that lust after increased power (for themselves and frequently the state as well).
It makes sense that that would be a process of erosion and (hopefully) rejuvination across years, decades, generations, centuries - as the counter forces battle. If you're really fortunate you live in a system that makes it a lot more difficult for the power-seeking politicians to trample on your rights.
Just because something of value requires effort to keep or maintain, that doesn't debase its value or otherwise speak to how great or how little the value is. Very valuable things often require an enormous investment to acquire and keep over time. At all times entropy is trying to destroy well ordered systems (eg democratic, constitutional, rights-protecting governments), it takes a huge amount of resources just to forestall that and you can never stop investing into it for long.
It also takes an enormous investment of resources to maintain authoritarian, anti-rights systems. They can never stop using force to oppress the population, they have to constantly crush the spirit of the population. They have to divert human potential on a persistent basis toward destruction, oppression, violent actions against the citizenship, actions inspiring fear/terror/dread. They can never stop spewing propaganda meant to keep the population in check, docile, in fear, etc.
That systems require active effort and mental attention to maintain, tells you very little about whether they're good or bad, the same goes for values a person holds (which also require effort to maintain), or the values a culture of people broadly holds.