I've been developing websites and apps with Svelte for almost 2 years now, and my experience couldn't be more different from yours.
> - Too much magic. The abstraction leaks and when it does, it requires a good mental model of Svelte's magic. I noticed this threw our juniors off.
Since Svelte runs vanilla JS and works with the DOM directly, my experience debugging any "magic" has been extremely straightforward compared to other frameworks. I'm curious what specific issues you have encountered.
> - I find the javascript-native flexibility of JSX far more expressive than any custom templating
Not once have I wished I had JSX in a Svelte project, and the readability of Svelte's minimal templating sugar is a breath of fresh air for myself. What's an example of a limitation you've faced in practice?
> - There are major trade offs made by doing things at compile time. Things that are easy in React at runtime turn out to be surprisingly difficult in Svelte.
I would love an example of this, as I've yet to run into any situations where I felt there was something I couldn't accomplish at runtime.
> - Two-way data binding is a constant source of bugs
It's rare that I use two-way data binding, but in the rare cases where it's appropriate, it's very convenient. The improper use of a utility doesn't necessarily discredit the value of said utility.
> - Svelte practically requires let-style variable rebinding, often at a file wide scope, which again caused our juniors in particular to write bad code
I'm not sure this is true- with access to JS modules, stores, nullish coalescing, and lifecycle hooks, let-style rebinding can be avoided entirely.
> - Built in reactive store is cool, but our developers all ended up using it for tight coupling and global variables
Inexperienced developers will write bad code with or without powerful tools like Svelte stores. I don't think a framework is meant to replace experience, guidance, and coaching.
> - The style system is too opinionated for me. I also find it necessary to break into the global scope for any minor restyling of a subcomponent (or worse, pass in the style as a prop)
Considering you Svelte lets you style things in a plethora of different ways (including the traditional method of external css files), I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that it's opinionated.
> - The strict one component per file approach can be cumbersome. It's not possible to write a one-line function component or similar
While it _can_ be, a single function shouldn't be a "component"- but Svelte "actions" are an awesome feature designed to make single functions easy to compose and reuse across components. That being said, there is talk of supporting multiple Svelte components per file (although it's rather controversial and largely unnecessary in Svelte projects).
> - Much smaller ecosystem than React, requiring much more to be done in house (exacerbated by all of the above).
Considering any JS library (most importantly, ones that interact with the DOM) is plug-and-play in a Svelte file- I've never found myself needing something that didn't exist on NPM. Nonetheless, the DX and power of Svelte enables us to create complex libraries and components that would ordinarily be too cumbersome or time consuming to produce in-house, and with much less code than with React. This usually pays dividends in the long-run, as custom solutions are typically easier to debug and extend.
> - The faster runtime speed in no way made up for any of the above. Bad Svelte code is still slow compared to good React code.
The runtime speed is pretty low on my list of reasons I prefer Svelte above other solutions. While the performance gains from Svelte are amazing for users (especially ones with low-end devices or shotty internet speeds), the unparalleled DX, development speed, maintainability (do more with less code = less bugs = easier to maintain), community, and overall fun involved in working with Svelte overshadow the free optimization done by the compiler at build-time.
Anyways, I hope that round 2 will be more fruitful for you and your team! I'm highly skeptical that React will solve more problems than it causes when your primary bottleneck is developer experience, but I'm sure we will both be able to learn from your experience regardless of the outcome!
> Inexperienced developers will write bad code with or without powerful tools like Svelte stores. I don't think a framework is meant to replace experience, guidance, and coaching.
This is the gist of the whole comment. The person posting is not complaining about a bad Svelte experience, they're complaining about bad programming practices.
> - Too much magic. The abstraction leaks and when it does, it requires a good mental model of Svelte's magic. I noticed this threw our juniors off.
Since Svelte runs vanilla JS and works with the DOM directly, my experience debugging any "magic" has been extremely straightforward compared to other frameworks. I'm curious what specific issues you have encountered.
> - I find the javascript-native flexibility of JSX far more expressive than any custom templating
Not once have I wished I had JSX in a Svelte project, and the readability of Svelte's minimal templating sugar is a breath of fresh air for myself. What's an example of a limitation you've faced in practice?
> - There are major trade offs made by doing things at compile time. Things that are easy in React at runtime turn out to be surprisingly difficult in Svelte.
I would love an example of this, as I've yet to run into any situations where I felt there was something I couldn't accomplish at runtime.
> - Two-way data binding is a constant source of bugs
It's rare that I use two-way data binding, but in the rare cases where it's appropriate, it's very convenient. The improper use of a utility doesn't necessarily discredit the value of said utility.
> - Svelte practically requires let-style variable rebinding, often at a file wide scope, which again caused our juniors in particular to write bad code
I'm not sure this is true- with access to JS modules, stores, nullish coalescing, and lifecycle hooks, let-style rebinding can be avoided entirely.
> - Built in reactive store is cool, but our developers all ended up using it for tight coupling and global variables
Inexperienced developers will write bad code with or without powerful tools like Svelte stores. I don't think a framework is meant to replace experience, guidance, and coaching.
> - The style system is too opinionated for me. I also find it necessary to break into the global scope for any minor restyling of a subcomponent (or worse, pass in the style as a prop)
Considering you Svelte lets you style things in a plethora of different ways (including the traditional method of external css files), I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that it's opinionated.
> - The strict one component per file approach can be cumbersome. It's not possible to write a one-line function component or similar
While it _can_ be, a single function shouldn't be a "component"- but Svelte "actions" are an awesome feature designed to make single functions easy to compose and reuse across components. That being said, there is talk of supporting multiple Svelte components per file (although it's rather controversial and largely unnecessary in Svelte projects).
> - Much smaller ecosystem than React, requiring much more to be done in house (exacerbated by all of the above).
Considering any JS library (most importantly, ones that interact with the DOM) is plug-and-play in a Svelte file- I've never found myself needing something that didn't exist on NPM. Nonetheless, the DX and power of Svelte enables us to create complex libraries and components that would ordinarily be too cumbersome or time consuming to produce in-house, and with much less code than with React. This usually pays dividends in the long-run, as custom solutions are typically easier to debug and extend.
> - The faster runtime speed in no way made up for any of the above. Bad Svelte code is still slow compared to good React code.
The runtime speed is pretty low on my list of reasons I prefer Svelte above other solutions. While the performance gains from Svelte are amazing for users (especially ones with low-end devices or shotty internet speeds), the unparalleled DX, development speed, maintainability (do more with less code = less bugs = easier to maintain), community, and overall fun involved in working with Svelte overshadow the free optimization done by the compiler at build-time.
Anyways, I hope that round 2 will be more fruitful for you and your team! I'm highly skeptical that React will solve more problems than it causes when your primary bottleneck is developer experience, but I'm sure we will both be able to learn from your experience regardless of the outcome!