Whenever I do, I seem to find myself caring too much about the responses. This leads me to returning again and again to a thread I've already learned from and replying to responses in an attempt to clarify my position. Before I know it, a half-hour has passed to no benefit.

Since arrows tend to be clicked to reflect a worldview which conforms to a reader's own and not to promote posts of substance, I find the result is more poking a hive-mind than learning through discussion. That agitates me far more than it should and, for myself, it's best by far to simply lurk.

That is the biggest pile of bs I have ever read. Just because he starts his posts with a lol, and a smiley mean NOTHING. It angers and disgusts me to think that 17 other people happen to agree with you.

You guys (and I mean the HN "elite") try to avoid group thinking like its the plague, you believe you operate like the intelligent guys of the web but your reaction to that comment was disgusting and evident that your guilty of the same underlying thread that fuels racism and prejudice - difference.

What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys - and a kid reluctantly comes up to you one day, and says "Hey, I'm pretty shy around here because I feel I don't fit in." Your response was "well, of course you don't kid, look at you, you dress like an idiot and you stink" - then you and your cronies all laugh.

I used to really like HN, I used to enjoy the comments more than I did the articles at one point. But this has just become a place where people can split hairs, argue semantics, stroke their own ego's and do their best to feel self-important. Your comment is the epitome of my point.

I can't believe you just grilled that dude because of how he types. I've met plenty of very, very wealthy and successful individuals to know that how you type has absolutely no connection to how much respect you give readers, and how much they think about their responses.

The barrier to entry of participating on HN is not how you word, or begin your point - but the value you add.

Actually it means a lot. When you read, your neurons get tingled. How this happens is affected by writing style. Not everybody has the time or energy to be a hyperrationalist information absorber that processes data into the same thing irrespective of the order and manner it arrives.

edit: I think you've misinterpreted my post if you think I said anything about whether his writing style is bad -- I've just said that it causes people to react a certain way. (Though, if you want me to declare which side I'm on on that matter of whether it's objectively bad, it's the opposite of yours.)

What people use in frequent communication with their friends or colleagues is likely to be different to that used on a public message board which brings together people from many different backgrounds for discussion of "deeply interesting" topics.

People of unknown status must provide a signal that their status is appropriate enough to warrant respect and attention: if you're taking your Valentine's date to a Michelin 3-star restaurant, you wear your best clothes.

People of known high status have the capability of signaling their status in a seemingly perverse way: by countersignaling. When a movie star shows up to a Michelin 3-star restaurant, he wears jeans and a faded t-shirt to show that he's high-status enough to break convention there.

tl;dr: C-level execs backed by the strongest VCs have earned the right to write informally and still be taken seriously. Most of us have not.

He just might not be so hot on English, it doesn't mean he hasn't considered what he's going to say.

Seriously though, calm down. Both your post and the post you're referring to have plenty of upvotes, which is a strong indication that they are not unwelcome contributions to HN. Personally I think it's important to maintain civility, writing quality, and professionalism in an online discussion, and I'm glad that HN values that. It's a lubricant that enables more productive, more rational, more open discussion without getting distracted by juvenile things like distracting humor and emotionally charged debate (as when someone lumps an entire group of people together, makes generalizations about them, and compares them to racists).

HN is still one of the few places on the intertrontubes where it's possible to have a mature, rational discussion. If you find someplace better, by all means let everyone know.

As far as I'm concerned, people pulling people up on their spelling and grammar is a step to far.

Edit: Spelling and grammer excellence isn't in the guidelines http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

If the majority of HN posters did not care about writing style, this situation would be reversed. But, c'est la vie.

Seriously though, HN isn't Reddit or Digg. I feel a little class and care can reasonably be expected from the informed commentator.

Attention is a scarce resource. Acting like a fool is correlated with actually being a fool. People are less likely to take a comment seriously when a cursory examination suggests that it's a waste of space. Maybe that's not the way it should be, but that's the way it is.

I've been at 3 F500 companies in my 20 years of work, and where those F500 have even changed CEOs once or twice. The only time a CEO has ever sent anything grammatically or syntactically incorrect is when he's paging IT from his cellphone to fix something on the Executive floor. Everything else is carefully crafted and presented, especially internal memoranda. Being a CEO is more than just promoting synergy like a boss; communication (including and especially writing) is almost everything else.

Ad hominem is useful in the real world because one's credibility impacts the probability that what they say is accurate.

But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking.

If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot of people who won't even read what you have to say if the writing is lazy and disrespectful to the reader.

As for the general topic of this sub-thread:

I really don't have any problem with the tendency on this forum to correct/critique someone's grammar or spelling. I just think how it is done matters. I can't wrap my brain around claiming that good grammar and spelling matter tons while delivering it with contempt, disrespect, hostility and general bad manners like those are just fine (which I have seen done quite a few times on HN). I would rather talk to someone who makes spelling and grammar errors but has manners than someone whose writing is impeccable but you can just feel them sneering down their nose at you. I didn't think the opening post from SamReidHughes really did that, though it wasn't all warm-fuzziness either. So I opted to assume it was "constructive feedback" given with good intentions even though it wasn't the warmest, most convivial delivery. But then I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. It takes two to make good communication happen. It isn't just about what one person does.

I prefer to err on the side of safety, and never do any crucifying.

In the best case scenario, you never respond viciously to someone who was just expressing themselves honestly.

In the worst case scenario, you treat the incendiary jerks with unexpected kindness, which usually confuses and annoys them in turn. It's win/win, you see!

I can understand skipping a comment over poor grammar. But if you are going to vote, I think you ought to consider the content over the form.

But natural language is like a programming language. If you start tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place, it won't compile, and it won't make much sense.

Things like grammar and spelling are the syntax of natural language, and failing to make sure you're close to the norm is a good way to throw an exception.

Not as concise as "proper" or "correct," but less likely to start an argument.

It slows me down considerably.

I'm not defending or agreeing with the complaint, just trying to find the reasoning behind one of the positions. I think people should step back and see what's actually bothering them about the writing (or if there's anything fundamentally bothersome at all).

I also know everything about punctuation, having taken two typing courses and one in standardized letter writing.

Despite all that, since I'm using CamelCase a lot and my shift keys have suffered from that so much that I have to press them forcedly, I try to limit their use whereever possible (this location just opted out of it ;).

  I've met plenty of very, very wealthy and successful
  individuals to know that how you type has absolutely no
  connection to how much respect you give readers, and how
  much they think about their responses.

In other words: your personal experience and opinion isn't relevant or convincing, because others have other priors.

  The barrier to entry of participating on HN is not how you
  word, or begin your point - but the value you add.

You cannot clearly separate presentation and contents. The presentation always influences how the contents are perceived and rated. You could be the smartest guy in the world: if you type without using caps, nobody is going to realize, because your text gets harder to read and understand. You can probably think of many more examples yourself, where presentation detracts from content.

The same is for HN, the community has rules for posting, even though they are not mentioned in the guide lines. It would be better to follow them. Just an example, in some communities, bad words are considered to be normal. Would you be happy if someone throw a word like that at you? After all it's his culture, no? But this is not the HN culture.

We value difference and we want to know your point of view, but there are simple rules for communication. That's it.

The whole structure of the original comment looks like a troll to me. (Get a rise out of us stick-in-the-mud HN with lol.) However, your reaction seems to be better designed to incense anger than to point out structural problems in the discussion or overlooked value in the original comment.

The original impetus behind HN was that it is a place where people can have civil discourse online. Proper grammar and spelling when writing are a part of that - it is the equivalent of not drooling from your mouth when speaking.

And they say civility's dropped on HN.

"I have spent a long time on hacker news. In fact I used to communicate with others on a regular basis but that ceased awhile ago. My views are probably considered extreme to most in the community and thus I chose not to comment due to the "instant karma" I would receive based on my view that the community would most likely as a whole disagree with. Additionally, I know some who are much more intelligent than myself and yet they never comment. They merely troll (troll is a non-negative attribute here) the site soaking up information and leaving nothing in return. "

My opinion: the community is here to get down to business. Humor is pushed aside in most cases and discussions focus much more on the topic at hand. (No I am not claiming hacker news users do not have a sense of humor, I am trying to say that this community is driven by information and not jokes.) For those who would like this clarified: If you want jokes, digg, reddit, etc all exist, if you want information and perhaps a chance to learn a thing or two than hacker news is for you.

Personally, this is why I regularly browse the site. I view hacker news as a geek's fantasy show and tell.

For shorter posts, it is probably worth your time to spend an extra 1 or 2 minutes making sure the capitalization and grammar are correct. But, for longer posts, when you are expressing more complicated ideas, spending too much time reviewing your writing style would damage your train of thought. It would probably suffice to say, "Sorry if my English isn't so great."

There's a HUGE difference between a native English speaker writing a thoughtless post with bad style, and a non-native English speaker writing a thoughtful post with bad style.

I think a lot of HN people are sensitive to writing style because it's a useful way to decide whether or not you should bother reading something. If a comment is very poorly written, it is more likely (but not definite) that the content is also poorly imagined.

The problem is when there are "false negatives" such as yourself--people who are carefully thinking through their ideas, but are not as well-versed in writing style. Help the community cut you some slack; advertise the fact that English is not your first language when you do not have the time or skill to make your posts perfect. :-)

After all, provided you can convey your thought and emotion to me successfully, that's all that matters right?

I'd really don't know if it's all that matters, but you might be right, I'll have a try. After all that's were emoticons might be of help as well (as a pro argument for their use ;).

Thank you.

(replying to myself since reply function is deactivated at that level (as a feature))

Like so.

My personal opinion is that with the rise of globalisation and non-native English's prevalence on the internet, any use of language that is understandable and unambiguous is good enough for discourse.

Attitude towards such things can make a big difference. :-)

I like getting a diversity of views and feedback/information. It is one of the reasons I work hard on coming across politely and respectfully when speaking with people who have strongly different views from mine: It is the only way I have found for such interactions to be really good opportunities for growth instead of pissing contests. Pissing contests rarely have any productive value.

As for speaking English as a second language: Stating up front "please forgive my English" seems to work pretty well to smooth things over for some members here. Practicing your English will improve it, possibly quite a lot in a short time. (I have seen that with foreign friends who chose to speak with me in spite of sometimes having very poor English and me not knowing their language at all.)

And I apologize if you don't actually want solutions. Many people don't. I am often annoying in that way.

Peace.

This isn't my discussion and so I apologize for potentially butting in, but being an ESL speaker myself it bothers me a bit to see ESL writers apologize for their English. I'm not sure if this is unique to those who are ESL themselves, but I find distinguishing between an ESL writer and a sloppy native writer trivial. If it's at a point where it causes problems communicating, we'll know it's because English isn't your first language, and we know the writer would rather not make these mistakes - no need to apologize.

As for conveying sarcasm in short posts on the internet, the difficulty is far from limited to ESL writers.

Peace.

I appreciate the "please forgive my English" notes, actually. I am a native English speaker, and I have no ability whatsoever to distinguish between ESL writers and sloppy natives. I certainly was not aware that frevd was not a native speaker until he mentioned it.

I must say that many people here are surely right what serious contribution is about, i.e. involving serious commitment, not sloppiness, which certainly improves on content quality.

However, if that scares away those of us who merely wanted to point out something without having the time for a proper pronounciation (especially non-natives), less a proof, it would be sad to lose their opinions.

Unproven Intuitions and fun statements must be allowed as well, otherwise you'd lose some important flow here, and who can say what might inspire others, effectively.

Prohibiting smileys and alike or limiting types of expressions through forced writing style can even mean worse, being contraproductive for the overall content submission. But surely there are better places for instant-talk.

I think you might have misdiagnosed the problem.

  YAWN! n00bz, you really bore me here.

I remember that, and I wanted to directly express the low-quality of that particular post, which of course must have been of value for some people but me, nevertheless.

For my defence, I immediately regretted that comment, however I'm not deleting none of them.

Regarding the skewed view, it's not solely based on this forum and this account only ;].

I support the original attitude that pervaded HN, that karma is about surfacing interesting information. It's not personal, nor should it be.

Personal relationships do develop here, but not as a direct function of karma (I'm sure karma plays some role, inevitably, due to visibility and so discovery.)

In short, what would the other person want to know? (That's "want", not "should", the latter being a slippery slope.) Keeping in mind the composition and goals of the community, this makes participating pretty straight forward.

--

1 Maybe I've been veering too far in this direction, lately.

I call it the Mr. Ed principle.

Thanks, great minds!

I actually think that most comments add more noise than information, and therefore decrease the value of a thread as a whole. This get worse as commenting gets easier, because easier posting means more comments, but most people don't actually have something interesting to say/write. Information gets diluted and less accessible/visible.

In fact, this applies to the whole Internet and I sometimes wonder how much time it would have taken to learn the same things I learned while browsing through tech-related blogs by, for example, reading books (which are, often, denser in terms of information).

Chicago has an excellent reputation!

I actually agree, I find it a lot easier to learn here than I did at University. I think it's because I'm mixing with people that care about knowledge.

I'd guess there's a lot of people like you - most online communities have a very disproportionate amount of lurkers.

Sometimes I have stuff to say, but I'm afraid I'll spend the rest of the day coming back to HN and hope for acknowledgment and responses. This could be selfish, I know, especially when I really know something about a topic, but I can't help it.

That perfectly describes my relationship with Hacker News.

As another first time commentor but long time lurker, I'd like to thank those of you who do comment. You've created a truly great resource.

I have made exactly three comments before this one, and they were almost a year ago. If not for those, I might not have even created an account here. I just have the type of personality that enjoys taking in knowledge more than discussing it.

My account at Less Wrong is similarly neglected. I often wonder how many others (on both sites) do what I do.

So I wouldn't presume that you are not adding value unless you just enjoy putting yourself down (in which case you are still adding value to some folks I am sure). :-)

But by the way, interesting concept of anti-value. I'm sure Information Theory has got something to say about creation ex nihilo.

Google cone of learning.

It seems that it was originally called the Cone of Experience and the percentages were not given.

You are being directed to go to Google (or other search engine of choice) and enter the phrase "Cone of Learning".

You should get a result similar to the following: http://www.google.com/search?q=cone+of+learning&ie=utf-8...

Google Cone of Haste +3

Parsing it as a verb, I followed your instructions and this comment is already the top hit for "Cone of Haste" on Google.

    Google "Cone of Learning"

The google cone of haste, I like that.

I understand the way it works in English intellectually but not too comfortable with all these ambiguities intuitively.

But lately I was thinking about this quote.

Information is not knowledge. ~Einstein

"I've learned more from the community than I did during my $100,000 MBA from the University of Chicago."

You weren't out meeting people and making awesome connections?

You didn't build relationships with the brilliant professors?

I am shocked by the content of your post.

What have you learned on Hacker News? And then what did you learn at Booth?

I would pay to read that write-up.

My family comes from an ethnically Catholic background, you know, Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, many of the people who came to the U.S. fleeing the aftermath of WWII, members of the surplus humanity whose livelihood was destroyed by the mechanization of agriculture in the early half of the twentieth century.

In the 1960's and 1970's, in a time when it became unfashionable to attack blacks and indigenous persons, academics such as Mark Granovetter and Edward C. Banfield were writing treatises about the inferiority of traditionally Catholic ethnic groups. And I'll just say that in graduate school, people from these backgrounds find there is no organization for their "national advancement" or "anti-defamation" and they'll be left to their own devices to understand why certain doors just aren't quite open to them.

[Disclaimer: the author of this post has no relationship to the Catholic Church other than having many family and friends who are members, and in fact, is a pagan]

To that end, I love seeing folks in this HN startup "tribe" have an idea that others may think is silly, pour their blood, sweat, and tears into and maybe it works out. Or maybe it doesn't.

I've always said, "we'll either all end up in a mansion or a cardboard box, but we'll have a blast along the way". That pretty much sums up what it means to be an entrepreneur to me. Meet like minded people trying to make the world a better place, and maybe make a little cash along the way.

So kudos to all of us kids playing around in the sandbox trying to create a bit of the future, today.

Years later he's in a job that he could have worked his way into by now, except a large chunk of his (disappointing) salary goes toward his loans.

Although, I do have to agree that there is a great amount of information on here, especially in the Ask HN type threads.

key is to put it all to use!

What Chicago startup did you end founding or joining?