I don't "go around dismissing things as artificial", you're just playing word games. It's obvious from context how they meant it, "artificial" is just not a good way to say it. Anyone who truly rejects "all artificial" things won't write on the internet, or even speak in polite society, seeing how they would be butt naked. So that can't possibly be the meaning.
Just like you don't literally mean "going far", which has nothing to do with distance travelled.
Dismissing things because they're "artificial", as if that proves anything, is super common in these sort of discussions. Especially online, especially among tech folks.
> Nationalism isn't normal
OK. I'm listening.
> , countries are a completely artificial construct.
So. What.
"Grass is not red," OK, I'm with you, I'm very open to what you're writing, even. "Red is an artificial construct," nice non-sequitur and it's not that it isn't true, but so what?
Well, I wouldn't have put it that way, and I'm not that poster, so it's useless to get stuck to that word.
Personally I don't mind the artificiality of countries, but the insanity of the identities some people (artificially) construct around being randomly born somewhere (especially since people who contributed fuck all to wherever they live seem perfectly fine of being rabid nationalists)
Just like it's not a problem that your laptop is artificial, but if you start to pretend it's giving you commands, or if you just do what you want, but claim it's for the good of your laptop, then the problems begin. I wasn't just saying that to be snarky, you know, I was actually making a point. Because it's artificial, created by humans, and you are a human. I just don't know how to make it clearer than that.
> the insanity of the identities some people (artificially) construct around being randomly born somewhere
I may have been randomly born somewhere, but I am grateful to my ancestors and countrymen for their self-sacrifice (sometimes giving up their lives), for the blood sweat and tears they put into building the nation to be a better place for the next generation. Calling this a form of insanity seems like insanity itself.
> especially since people who contributed fuck all to wherever they live seem perfectly fine of being rabid nationalists
I obey the law and contribute substantial income taxes to my national government that they distribute to others in ways that I don't agree with. I am likely a "rabid nationalist" as you put it, and I am proud to be this way, I believe it is righteous and beneficial.
> but if you start to pretend it's giving you commands, or if you just do what you want, but claim it's for the good of your laptop, then the problems begin
My country gives me commands and I obey them, because it is mostly for the good of my country and fellow countrymen.
> I am grateful to my ancestors and countrymen for their self-sacrifice
I say "constructed identity", you say "I am grateful". If you twist my words to call them insane, that in itself says a lot about the security of your beliefs.
I have that gratitude, too, and I'm grateful to even more people who aren't my ancestors or countrymen. So why make that distinction? It's like saying "I'm grateful to the people with blue t-shirts who showed me kindness in life".
> I say "constructed identity", you say "I am grateful".
I'm not seeing your point. If it's that my gratefulness is "constructed", well, guilty as charged I guess. Love and most any other emotion people feel is "constructed".
> If you twist my words to call them insane, that in itself says a lot about the security of your beliefs.
You're the one who started with the insult, I simply returned the favor while pointing out the logical flaws in your reasoning for the insult.
> I have that gratitude, too, and I'm grateful to even more people who aren't my ancestors or countrymen. So why make that distinction?
That they're different seems sufficient reason.
> It's like saying "I'm grateful to the people with blue t-shirts who showed me kindness in life".
It might be, if people in blue t-shirts actually had showed me noteworthy kindness in life. But they haven't, so therefore it actually isn't like that, at least according to my logic.
>Personally I don't mind the artificiality of countries, but the insanity of the identities some people (artificially) construct around being randomly born somewhere (especially since people who contributed fuck all to wherever they live seem perfectly fine of being rabid nationalists)
What if constructing such an identity is a trait that has been selected for in humans?
There probably is also an evolutionary reason for rape to exist, does that mean rape is fine? Why is the present not also part of evolution, why does something that "evolved in the past" have to be protected from criticism in this way?
> What if constructing such an identity is a trait that has been selected for in humans?
First of, what if it isn't true? Do you have any evidence that it's true? Right now the jury is still out on the survival of organized human life, and such "identities" play no small part in that.
"selected for" can be a fancy way to say a lot of things, too. For example, some humans went crazy and started murdering others who weren't crazy in the same fashion. "evolution proved we're stronk, so let's just gang up on this person and vote them into the ground". Oh look, they comments are all grayed out, so that proves something, right? Right? Well, no. Unless you subscribe to a Mein Kampf style "might is right" philoshophy, this argument is as valid as physical violence to decide who is right.
>There probably is also an evolutionary reason for rape to exist, does that mean rape is fine?
My question is not in regard to whether anything is or isn't "fine". The point of my question was to suggest there might be a reason that people form such identities beyond some kind of collective insanity as you suggest.
>Why is the present not also part of evolution, why does something that "evolved in the past" have to be protected from criticism in this way?
You're not just criticizing it, you're calling it insanity. If there is a very good evolutionary reason for that sort of behavior, it's not insanity.
>First of, what if it isn't true?
Then it may be in contention for the longest running collective mania that has afflicted this species.
>Do you have any evidence that it's true?
Sure, humans seem to be predisposed toward forming such identities. That is evidence, though it's not conclusive.
>Right now the jury is still out on the survival of organized human life, and such "identities" play no small part in that.
OK, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.
> For example, some humans went crazy and started murdering others who weren't crazy in the same fashion. "evolution proved we're stronk, so let's just gang up on this person and vote them into the ground".
Whether it's due to genetics or culture or some combination, formulating these identities seems to have been a successful strategy in terms of populating future generations, which is what is important when it comes to wondering why we are like we are today. And if it turns out to have been helpful in the past, it is certainly worth examining to see what it can do for us today.
The "what if" was in response to your classification of developing an identity based on your nation as "insanity".
I'm not asking you to ponder if there are any benefits to it today. Given your attitude, I don't think any discussion on the topic would be productive.
Just like you don't literally mean "going far", which has nothing to do with distance travelled.