I know I fall into the "bad guy" minority here, but....
> Indian people are forced to spend their lives in the U.S. on the H-1B visa.
Have the rules changed dramatically since they made the choice to do this? Because it sounds like just that, they chose to spend their lives in the U.S. on the H-1B visa. I agree that the rules suck and need change, but nobody if forcing them to come.
> She hadn’t been able to see us for a year but later opted for a visa to “visit” a nation that is practically her home.
This again appears to fall into the category of a choice. That they chose to subject their child to the situation described, because the rules were in place before they came here.
I would like to see the rules change, but it's unfair to act like you had no choice when you voluntarily signed up to have those rules applied to you (or your family).
The problem that I see is that the child had no choice in the matter. Imagine if you turned 21 and were kicked out of the country that you grew up in and had to move to a country that you haven't been to since you were a baby. I don't really know what a reasonable solution to this might look like.
It's not about the parent (which is not a job by the way). We are talking about actual people turning 21 and having no choice but to leave the country where they spend their whole life based on the situation of a different person. I personally have difficulty thinking of a more unfair situation.
Note that the USA is pretty exceptional in this regard. Most countries don't ask for people to be permanent resident before being able to apply for naturalization and children of immigrant having lived their whole life in a country can just apply for and be granted citizenship.
If it helps, you're arguing a different point than I am. I agree the rules are bad, the child should be able to stay. However, the parents don't get to lay the entire blame on the government/laws, because they knew going into the situation what was going to happen. They _chose_ to set things up so their child would be sent back to a country it didn't know.
This situation is pretty normal. If my parents moved to Japan for work and their visa is up, my visa is up too. It’s probably the same if they had worked in India as foreigners.
> If my parents moved to Japan for work and their visa is up, my visa is up too
That's not the problem here though, It's more like your parents moved to Japan for work, stayed there, and when you turned 21 you were kicked out of the country and they get to stay.
That's true, but I think the point was that it's more like your parents knew how long the backlog was, moved somewhere, had a child, failed to do that simple arithmetic (aka hyperbolic discounting; when a thing is so far in the future that we fail to take it into account), and then you didn't get to stay once you were too old.
Exactly. If I move to France on a temporary work visa with my 10 kids, they don't automatically get to stay indefinitely or get granted citizenship somehow just because their parent has a work visa. They have no French parent and weren't born there so their rights as visitors are limited.
Everytime these discussions come up there are all these articles and pundits passionately advocating for the US to have extremely wide open immigration rules that are not observed by any other country in the world, and they claim racism if it doesn't happen the way they want. This constant race-baiting they do is racist in itself.
> Exactly. If I move to France on a temporary work visa with my 10 kids, they don't automatically get to stay indefinitely or get granted citizenship somehow just because their parent has a work visa.
That's a very poor example you have chosen.
The children of foreigners granted a titre de séjour (the maximum duration of a visa in France is one year) as family members of a person working in France:
- are allowed to work in France ;
- are entitled to titre de séjour allowing them to stay for 10 years provided they apply before their 19th birthday and have lived for three years in France.
Considering you can apply for French citizenship after having lived five years in France or after completing a three years degree in a France, unless he is in France for a very short stay, the 10 kids of your hypothetical immigrant are pretty much guaranteed to become French if they want to.
> After 18 months in a long-stay residence permit marked ‘employee’ or ‘temporary worker’, you may apply to bring your family to France. Spouses (partners are excluded) and minor children can apply for a one-year ‘visitor’ visa (without being able to work during this time), and must sign the CAI.
This policy is very different than that for the 2016 "Talent Passport" permit, which allows the immediate family to migrate immediately and obtain work permits. It seems you are talking about that visa?
The US also has green cards for migrants that allow one to bring their whole family, stay indefinitely, have the family work, and all apply for citizenship after a time. These are fundamentally different visa classes than temporary non-immigrant work visas like the H1B. Unlike France, the US does not require the worker to wait 18 months before bringing their family on the H-4 family visa, they can come right away. Also, the spouse can work, unlike in France according to the above link. So the US policy is much more progressive.
How about the reverse? You move to France, have a kid that's a French citizen and when the child is 18, you are kicked out but they are allowed to stay.
Unlike the US, France does not have birthright citizenship so unless you or your spouse are a French national, your children born in France are not French citizens. If you live there legally long enough though you can apply for citizenship. Same as for permanent legal residents of the US who have lived here long enough.
My point is that I've lived here long enough (in 4 years, I'd have lived here longer than I lived in my home country) and I still have to wait an indefinite amount of time to become a permanent resident. I've been here 17 years and I'm still a 'temporary' worker. 15 years in the industry, >$500k/yr compensation and I've oversee a budget of $5 million.
A little technicality: persons born in France are automatically granted French citizenship at 18, providing that they are living in France at 18, and have lived in France for at least 5 years previously. These criteria tend to change a lot as this is a rather sensitive topic in France. Also sometimes an application is necessary, sometimes not.
An odd case: if both parents are foreigners, but one of them is born in France, then their children will automatically become French at birth (if born in France).
Then there are special rules for Algeria, as it was a part of France until 1962...
Yes, we need to apportion blame equally between a couple of parents just trying to live their lives and the government of the most powerful nation on the planet. Wouldn’t want to be unfair.
This is the same argument used to justify reporting DACA recipients back to countries they can’t remember, and to justify putting migrant children in concentration camps along the Mexican border. It’s sickening! When did we decide that some words on paper matter more than our duty to protect the innocent?
The children can complain about their situation. The parents should not complain about the children's situation because the parents actively chose to put their children in that situation.
The rules are bad. The children are in a bad situation. The parents don't get to pretend they didn't contribute to that situation.
Why not? Why can’t people complain about unjust laws they could have avoided? Why is it so important to control who gets to complain that you give that question more attention than the problem of innocent children being victimized by bad laws?
The children are being victimized by their parents' bad decisions to break existing law, not by the law itself. Whatever happened to the idea of personal responsibility and the accountability of parents to make good decisions for their children?
The way you talk about "choice" indicates you have a flawed and limited model of how choice actually works. Choices are contextual and entirely dependent upon circumstances. You should assume that people by-and-large make the best choice that is available to them. If they are dealing with this H1-B rules, they are doing so because this was better than the alternatives.
The problem with the H1-B is that it drastically limits future choices. Therefore people who made the logical choice at the time can end up, through no fault of their own, in a situation where they have to choose between bad and worse. It is entirely fair to blame the system for "forcing" these situations because it is doing so by DESIGN.
Limits per country it is not discrimination, as it limits a White British or French, a Myslim Pakistani, or Indian Hindu the same.
The limits are there to prevent one ethnicity just gaming it industrial scale and taking over the system.
Unfortunately it sucks for aj Indian, but it is great if you are an African from Senegal.
I personally think it should be more proportional to the country's population size, (i.e. India should have a higher quota) but the limit is still a good idea.
Of course it is discrimination. A British born person has better chances at PR than an Indian born person. The Indian is being given less opportunities not because of their skills or talent, but because of their place of birth.
> The limits are there to prevent one ethnicity
Why? Is it okay for an individual to be disadvantaged because of his ethnicity? Why are there no limits on religions too? After all, you get to choose your religion, but not your ethnicity.
Further, who told you India is only one ethnicity? India is more diverse than Europe.
> Unfortunately it sucks for aj Indian
If it sucks it is because this is discrimination.
> I personally think it should be more proportional to the country's population size
Why though? Why can't you judge an individual on their own skills without trying to either be bigoted like right wing or doing identity politics like left wing.
I think people sort of forget that "only let so many people into the country" isn't something we have to do, or that limiting immigration is some absolute positive thing.
> Indian people are forced to spend their lives in the U.S. on the H-1B visa.
Have the rules changed dramatically since they made the choice to do this? Because it sounds like just that, they chose to spend their lives in the U.S. on the H-1B visa. I agree that the rules suck and need change, but nobody if forcing them to come.
> She hadn’t been able to see us for a year but later opted for a visa to “visit” a nation that is practically her home.
This again appears to fall into the category of a choice. That they chose to subject their child to the situation described, because the rules were in place before they came here.
I would like to see the rules change, but it's unfair to act like you had no choice when you voluntarily signed up to have those rules applied to you (or your family).