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While you're correct about everything you wrote here, you totally missed the point of my post. If Rome had somehow avoided total collapse, we probably would have developed our current level of civilization and technology 1000 years earlier, because there was almost no technology being developed from ~400 - 1500, certainly not on the scale that the Romans did things. People went from having real toilets with running water from aqueducts to crapping in a hole in the ground until after the Renaissance, and from making complex buildings out of concrete to just stacking up stones (at best).

My claim is that today's society is going to collapse as well, and the survivors' ancestors will be really lucky to get back to this level of development in 1-2000 years.




Scholars over the last few decades dispute this, saying that immense advances occurred during these "dark times", in mining related technology in particular during the middle ages. Also clockworks, and much more. The Romans were great implementers but not renowned for innovation. As with so much else, the truth probably lies inbetween.


Lens grinding and gear-work indeed were important advances during the so-called "dark ages". There were also agricultural and metallurgy improvements. Whether such would happen faster or slower under original Roman rule is hard to say.

The end of slavery and birth of proto-democracies in Europe is arguably what propelled the industrial revolution. People didn't have to tolerate their lowly lot in life as much. When human labor got more expensive, machines proved their mettle. That increased the rate of mechanical progress until it was self-sustaining.


The advances were many.

However, one can't date the beginning of the end of slavery even in England proper to any earlier than 1772. The advances that underpinned the Industrial Revolution were in place by that time, including the Newcomen steam engine - 1712. It's true that only ten percent at most of England's population were slaves in the Dark to Middle Ages but the rest were Villians/Villeins (serfs), tied to land.

It was actually the simultaneous agricultural revolution that made labor cheap because it made vegetables cheap. This revolution had little to do with machinery, with the exception of Tull's horse-drawn seed drill. (Admittedly, a big exception.)


I'm not aware of any kind of lens or gear technology being developed during the dark ages. Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Renaissance? The dark ages are called that because no one was educated and no one wrote anything down. There's very little recorded history during that time, which is where the name comes from.


Concave mirrors to correct poor eyesight were available in Ancient Rome, if you were rich enough (there's record of Nero using one at the forum, IIRC.) Button lenses (single small lenses) for embroidery, etc, perhaps as well. Literacy existed during the dark ages, largely in monasteries. Scotland esp, plus the Babylonian Empire (Late Roman Empire) persisted. Records were more scarce, but exist. Gears go back to ancient Greece, we now know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

"Dark Ages" is something of a misnomer by now, most historians would say, I believe. This source blames Petrarch for the calumny: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/

Oman and Bury are good public domain sources on the dark ages. You can find some free books here: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_13?url=search-alia...

I would usually recommend gutenberg.org, but their pickings seem to be slim, in this case.


Pointing to things in ancient Rome or Greece isn't helping your argument, because many of those things were lost in the dark ages. They had toilets in Rome. They didn't have toilets in the dark ages. They built concrete-domed buildings in ancient Rome. They didn't build anything like that in the dark ages, or for a very long time afterwards (not until modern times; concrete had to be re-invented).

Literacy existed in monasteries, yes, but that was pretty much the only place it existed then!! Ancient Romans, by contrast, were mostly literate in the general population.

Why are people so eager to whitewash the dark ages and the loss of literacy and technology that happened there with the fall of Rome? I really wonder if a lot of it is coming from the Catholic Church; they've tried pushing a narrative that the dark ages were really a great time because everyone in Europe was Catholic.


As cited above, https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/ answers all this far better than I can. Changing the subject to loss of previous knowledge is arguing by distraction.


James C Scott argues that if you got to choose, you might prefer a dark age, because people in so-called dark ages were better off, as they weren't being "managed" by leaders more intent on legibility for social control than the wellbeing of people.


The quality of life and length of life for people under Roman rule was significantly better than during the dark ages of serfdom. The Romans had working plumbing and specialization of labor; all that went away during the dark ages. They also had learning, and working legal system, written history, etc. The dark ages didn't; that's why it's called the "dark ages": no one bothered to write anything down because they were all uneducated and didn't keep records. It's really weird how modern people are now trying to whitewash the dark ages; I simply fail to see how it's an improvement to abandon education and specialized labor and technology and go work in fields as a serf.


Also, the leaders during the feudal times were certainly not interested in the wellbeing of people. Where on earth did you get that idea? Feudal lords only cared about their own power and wealth.




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