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"I know that Graham loves doing that"

I do?



Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage.


Hack is of course applied by practically everyone who uses it to things other than code. The word we're talking about here though is hacker. Which is not just hack with er on the end of it any more than robber is just rob with er on the end of it.


I can see from your other comments today that you might be getting frustrated with this topic and I understand. It's not my intention to draw out some asinine debate over the use of the work hacker and hack.

That said, I can definitely understand why the original poster was assuming you use the word hacker in non-conventional ways. Claiming "one who hacks" is a metaphor for a person who implements innovative and disruptive ideas and then claiming "one who hacks" does not equate to a "hacker" is a bit of a semantic train wreck.

For the record, I've never heard of some one who uses "hacks" in that way to describe anything outside of the traditional "hacker" sense. I personally think it is a clever and interesting way to think of the word, and I also don't understand why anyone would be particular upset about it enough to post a comment.


"claiming "one who hacks" does not equate to a "hacker" is a bit of a semantic train wreck"

No, in standard usage they are not equivalent. "Hack" is used broadly for slightly dubious solutions in programming and other domains, whereas "hacker" is rarely used to refer to anything other than programmers.


From catb:

"The hacker mind-set is not confined to this software-hacker culture. There are people who apply the hacker attitude to other things, like electronics or music — actually, you can find it at the highest levels of any science or art. Software hackers recognize these kindred spirits elsewhere and may call them ‘hackers’ too — and some claim that the hacker nature is really independent of the particular medium the hacker works in. But in the rest of this document we will focus on the skills and attitudes of software hackers, and the traditions of the shared culture that originated the term ‘hacker’."

I don't believe that hacking is or should be confined to programming.


I don't believe that hacking is or should be confined to programming.

That's pretty funny insofar as it (the verb) is precisely the point not in dispute. Also, your quote supports what pg said: "hacker" refers to programmers by default, though non-standard usages are possible.

I don't see how this is even an argument. Pick just about any verb; I just thought of "bake". I baked something the other day. Does that make me a baker?


I baked something the other day. Does that make me a baker?

It means that you baked something.

Now, someone might look at it and say "That thing that gruseom baked is really good. Gruseom has the Baker nature." You might then gain respect from other bakes that you made and people consider you a baker.

I wasn't attempting to argue with pg - Do people only reply to him in order to stir things up? (I think, perhaps, that I've seen this pattern.) I was only throwing in what I consider to be a good definition of the scope of hacking from someone who has written a lot about the hacker culture (esr).


Except .. in mainstream media where a hacker is someone who do digital breaking and entering.


I believe that the people doing the "digital breaking and entering" are called "programmers", just as pg claimed.


Allow me to inject some fun:

preps needle with 10cc 'Different Topic Time'

Paul, may I ask you, "what is the time you (personally) most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage?"

It would be cool to know!


YCombinator?

The real reason we started Y Combinator is one probably only a hacker would understand. We did it because it seems such a great hack. There are thousands of smart people who could start companies and don't, and with a relatively small amount of force applied at just the right place, we can spring on the world a stream of new startups that might otherwise not have existed.

http://paulgraham.com/whyyc.html



any more than robber is just rob with er on the end of it

But one steals by threatening violence and the other clothes you against your wishes.


"Hack" can be used in a lot of valid ways without implying that non-computer-people are hackers.

If pg thought painters __were__ hackers the book would be called "Hackers: Painters, Programmers, and Socially Manipulative Psychopaths"


Unfortunately, yes. "Hackers and Painters" is a rather famous instance of that particular non-analogy. Given that you've published a book under this title, however, I doubt that there's any point in debating the issue here.

So I'll just say, even if painters and architects are hackers (to which I strongly object, but hey), including screenwriters such as Sorkin goes one or two steps too far. There's a line, and crossing it just makes "hacker" semantically arbitrary.


I don't think I ever applied the word "hacker" in that book to anyone except programmers. Or in anything else I've written: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Apaulgraham.com+hacker


>>"Hackers and Painters" is a rather famous instance of that particular non-analogy.

>I don't think I ever applied the word "hacker" in that book to anyone except programmers.

This is called a "non-denial denial".


It's called a denial of the actual claim (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1840270) instead of the one he tried to turn it into when called on it.

Man, today is one of those days I wish I'd never even started posting comments on HN.


I see your point now.


Don't feed the trolls.




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