While I'll give a fellow-HN reader my best optimistic wishes, I tend to agree that this is probably not going to be an out-of-the-park success. I have a better idea than most just how much work it took to make Shopify what it is today.
However, we should all be way less dick-ish about encouraging would-be entrepreneurs regardless of how shallow their ideas appear. It reflects well on us as a community if we encourage people before we put them down.
After all, how many posts about embracing failure get posted on this site, right?
Thanks Peter. Coming from someone who has been there, it means a lot.
The reasons I am doing it is I am an average developer who doesn't have any interesting ideas but who wants to foray into entrepreneurship and be his own boss. I considered a lot of free services which would rely on ads to generate revenue but I they didn't seem beneficial in terms of monetization.
So, I just thought about a lot of paid service and settled down on something which has plausible profitability. I am not copying shopify but there sure would be many features which work in the same way; after all, the ground premise is the same. I do have some differentiators but it's too early to call on them.
tl;dr My idea is not original or extra-ordinary; I am an average developer looking to be my own boss and this suited me the best.
On one hand, I agree with you that there's always room for another player in SaaS. If your goals are modest then it's possible that you could reach your goals. If you manage to line up 5-6 things over two years, that could be a healthy income.
However, if you really want to create wealth — for yourself and for the world — then you need to recognize that humans are really bad at identifying problems that really need solving. You need to pack your virtual bags and go deep into the country, looking for communities of users that you'd never consider in your normal every day life.
Start researching industrial organizations, hobby clubs, non-technical groups of all kinds. Lurk on their forums and pay attention to the problems that they have. Take notes. Not every problem is a potential business, but there is a world of opportunity out there.
Go in the opposite direction as everyone else. Recognize that often low-tech solutions are best. Listen more than you speak. You will find people who desperately need you to help them, and in doing that you will likely get further ahead than building a Shopify also-ran.
I don't think the poster necessarily wants to "change the world", but rather build something that will be of value and generate income. For which this idea seems appropriate (although I haven't researched the create-a-shop space or know much about it).
Your advice is excellent though, but I get the impression the poster is in Asia? That would make it harder to do real-world research in the US (which is the market he seems to be going after)?
Sometimes doing the same, just a little different/better, is not such a bad idea.
First, I applaud your enthusiasm, and for not responding in kind to some of the negativity in the comments. While I'm sure that there are a few who are just negative, most of the people offering criticism probably genuinely want to help. You'd be wise to listen to them.
And in the spirit of offering advice, here's my two cents: read "Four Steps to the Epiphany" and actually follow the advice. If that's too much, then just call or email 100 potential customers, outline your idea, and ask them what they think. These should be real potential customers who you envision would really want your service, not friends who once sold a piece of furniture on Craigslist. I can tell that you've got some emotional attachment to your idea, so this step might be hard, because you could find after 10 or 20 calls that things aren't quite the same from your customer's experience as you thought. But just keep going. By the time you have talked to 100 potential customers, you'll know exactly what they need, what they don't need, how they find new products, how to market to them, etc.
Good luck, and please do keep us posted with your progress :)
Don't listen to the naysayers and nanny-poos. Be persistent and willing to learn and you'll shift the odds in your favor. This is a personal journey as much as anything else, and only you can walk it.
Just the the other day I was talking to a small boutique baker (cakes, cookies, etc) and she was telling me how confusing it was to try to setup an online store. I said, "Have you heard of shopify?" and she said, "Uhh, no". You might find that your hardest part of this is getting to those customers because they don't know what to look for.
I read a lot and I have developed a selective comprehension. For anyone whose thoughts I admire, I found a lot I disagree with. For example, the recent debate about "Linus vs C++", there is a lot to disagree in Linus's criticism of C++, but from where I see, he is making some very valid points and if we cut the flame, it's an interesting post.
I am trying to apply the same principle here. I am filtering the not-so-polite words, pondering over what the critic has to say and then making the decision if I agree or not. For example, I don't agree with "having a formal business plan". I have considered it and I don't see the usefulness of it.
>You might find that your hardest part of this is getting to those customers because they don't know what to look for.
This. This is the biggest hurdle I have. I can pull off the technical aspects of the product and I can work on the SEO and have it featured on Google search results when you search for "online store". It might not concur exactly with my plans but atleast I know how to go about it. But I have no damn clue how do I reach the customer base who needs the service but is ignorant towards it.
I know there are a lot of people who want to have online stores. I know many of them use shopify and I see that shopify advertises more than 6000 stores. This puzzles me. 6000 is too small a number for the web. I might sound over confident but frankly, I am not very concerned about shopify. I am willing to compete over prices and features. But what concerns me is there is a huge untapped market segment and I have no ideas how do I capture them.
> But I have no damn clue how do I reach the customer base who needs the service but is ignorant towards it.
This is the key issue you need to dig into. Everything else is cursory. Don't go randomly talk to customers. Don't do market research. Go find a group of customers that you can effectively reach and then figure out how to find more of them. Is it single person bakers, like the person I mentioned? If so, what magazines do they read? Where do they buy their supplies? Do they hang out on specific online forums? What channels can you use t get your unique message across to them?
This is trial and error. Finding a niche like this will help you not differentiate on price, but instead, differentiate on unique features your niche is interested in.
Before you go further, I suggest you study your market with some market research, and set a target audience, make some test on that niche, a "there's enought room for everybody" approach is the wrong one. Good luck
Good idea. A niche approach is a great way to start.
The most important thing he has going for him is that he is starting with little expectations. As he begins to execute in the market, he can be incredibly flexible to attack opportunities that reveal themselves. The trick is to learn through testing as quickly as possible, rather than swing for the fences on an idea that is half baked.
Thanks for your time. I am keeping my options open for now. FWIW the service is largely going to remain same irrespective of what you are selling.
That's how I start building. I am considering some niches viz. cartoonists selling merchandise, authors selling digital goods. I am talking to a couple of potential customers about why they aren't doing it already.
I applaud anyone willing to quit their job to follow their own passions. Does this guarantee success? Of course not.
However, do not underestimate the value of truly knowing that you control your own destiny and do not have to 'grind it out' at some desk for the next 30 years.
FWIW, I believe that if you hard worker & are a kick-ass programmer you can make up for a lot of supposed 'deficiencies' i.e.: market analysis, planning and product development.
Just checked your baby (zferral dot com) - looks good.
> a lot of supposed 'deficiencies' i.e.: market analysis, planning and product development.
Some of them are deficiencies viz. "no ideas how to market my product to people who need the service but aren't using it" and some of them are by choice. Eg: I don't believe doing market analysis of potential customers would give me an edge. Shopify has 6000 active stores and I would say even a constrained market analysis would come up with a number much, much bigger than this.
I think you should probably work a bit more on why your service is going to be better than your competitors. More than one competitor existing isn't really a great business plan.
Imagine if Pepsi's marketing campaign revolved around "Because Pepsi isn't Coke."
> service is going to be better than your competitors.
To each his own, but I am not going to do this. Internally yes, but I am not going to compare to the competitors externally.
From what I know, comparing to the competitor is generally a bad idea. Current users of the service take any comparison or criticism personally and all it does is drive potential customers away.
For the new customers, I am willing to believe in the intelligence of the human race. Prospective customers are smart enough to do their research before settling on a service. My job would be to make the features lucid and clear and highlight the differentiators. As I already mentioned, I do have some differentiators in mind.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step -the most important thing to being a successful entrepreneur is to just start - so good luck and roll with the punches!
Big whoop. This kind of post pops up every few days. No business plan. No market analysis. No real idea of who will use your shopping service and why. No description of value, benefits, and features. Reads like wishful thinking and dreams of grandeur. All you have is an idea and a domain name.
You might be right, but it's extremely disappointing to me to see upvotes collecting on such a flippant put-down of another entrepreneur sharing his first steps and excitement with the one community that should understand and be encouraging.
I vaguely recall that PG talked somewhere about how one of the biggest threats to HN wasn't spam or abuse, but just a general downward spiral of incivility and mean-spiritedness. I think I know now what he was talking about.
I don't think it was a flippant put-down. Nor was I being uncivil or mean-spirited. I was being frank and straightforward. I was telling him exactly what he would hear from someone in the real world if he were to pitch it. If he can't handle this kind of experience-based advice on HN, then he certainly will crumble in the real world. I honestly wish him the best of luck. With a startup idea this vague, he will need it.
Why are trite comparisons with "the real world" (whatever that is) always the refuge of those who scorn others in public? "Well, if they can't take a little criticism from me, just wait until they hit the real world!"
Give me a break. Opening your comment with "big whoop" is hardly frank or straightforward. You offered no real advice or help, and you're effectively anonymous from what I can tell, so your claims of "experience" are worthless. Your comment just reeks of a condescending snark that HN is better off without.
Ok, my experience is that my own lone-founder startup failed a couple of years ago in very large part because I didn't do the things that I claim are missing. I read the post, identified red flags that I failed at finding, and then posted them as a critique, which is what the poster asked for.
I think you are taking a moral position about what should and shouldn't be the tone on HN. I might have missed it, but who elected you to determine what is or isn't "condescending snark"? And from follow-up posts by the original poster and others, it looks like I did offer some real advice. It just wasn't wrapped up in rosy and verbose language that you prefer.
I am not going to have one ever:-). On a more serious note, I am not selling out or going to ask for capital ever. The only person that needs to be convinced of the business value is me and I am convinced.
> No market analysis.
And that would affect me how? If there is an existing market for it, I am tapping into it. There is an existing market; I didn't feel the need to do research to prove that people are interested in selling things online and e-commerce is hard and if you are a merchant, you are more interested in selling thing than taking the pains of implementing it.
If there isn't an existing market for it(hypothetically speaking), I know people want to sell things. If they aren't selling it online already, it's only because the services aren't up to the mark, and that would be a good thing for me.
> No real idea of who will use your shopping service and why.
No, there isn't a real idea. The idea will change every week with the implementation and keep on changing until something clicks. But the ground rules are laid out. The service is for anyone who wants to sell things online and does not have the time/resource/interest to implement it himself.
It is for you if you want to sell tee shirts with funny graffiti; it is for you if you are a writer who is embracing new media and wants to sell his ebooks; it is for you if you are selling anything online. You can either attach the widget to your existing blog/site(would be helpful for web-cartoonists or people who already run a high traffic site) or create a new store and host us with us.
> No description of value, benefits, and features.
Value and benefits are what I have already detailed. I have just begun and features would be finalized as we work on it. If that looks like bad planning to you, so be it. That's the mode that suits me.
> Reads like wishful thinking and dreams of grandeur.
Although akadien's response was a bit blunt, your response shows that you aren't willing to listen to criticism. Relax, and really try to open yourself to what other people have to say.
This is something I've really been learning the last year or so running my company. You might not agree with everything everyone has to say (and you don't have to, it is your company, after all), but you do want to be successful, and you haven't been yet, so don't be so quick to get defensive when other people have feedback and criticism.
> your response shows that you aren't willing to listen to criticism.
I am. But as a critic, shouldn't you be willing to listen to counter-arguments as well? After all, a discussion isn't one sided.
> don't be so quick to get defensive when other people have feedback and criticism.
Ummm..So what's the take-away here? I shouldn't reply back? Validity of an idea or argument is highly subjective and perceptive. akadien conveyed his thoughts and I conveyed mine without being rude or derailing the discussion. I would think that's how the discussion is supposed to work.
Very negative, sure, but it isn't an argument, and there are no counter-arguments to akadien's advice.
He doesn't have any of those things that many people believe to be the mark of a promising business. To akadien, those things are very important. To irahul they appear not to be. Who knows, he could be successful doing it differently, no one here would be able to say one way or the other.
I can't stop suggesting it again: You need a Market analysis , and here again, you NEED a market analysis. Creating a startup is not as easy as you may think (maybe I'm wrong here, but reading your blog post exactly sounds like you are dreaming) and think doing all the code/infrastructures and having a domain is the bigger deal, well, that's the easiest part. So here some sadditional suggestions:
>You don't need a business plan , but you need to know how you will make money.
>You NEED a market analysis : you don't even need to spend money for this. Just do yourself a favor, make some research and set a clear target audience.
>you NEED a real IDEA , not an idea that will change every week, you can change how you plan to make money, but your idea can't keep changing every week, to see what will click, nothing will click in some weeks, you may need a lot of luck for that.
>I don't see the value as well, of course YOU see the value, the only problem: YOU will not buy your product . Ask yourself, why will peoples want to use your product and not shopify, or whatever other service? Those other services do ONE thing, they validate your market, but they don't tell you if you have a chance to gain part of that market , wich part of it, and how------>the Market research does.
>Indeed reads like wishful thinking and dreams of grandeur
>All you have have is an Idea and a domain name: you should claim otherwise, you should defend your idea, you should tell uss why it's more than an idea, ever heard the saying: ideas are worth nothing!? ---> you should have an Idea on how you will make money, you should know your market.
Now on something else, if this is your first venture, keep in mind many peoples on HN have been there, and they give advices to help you, at least most of us. Your SEO approach gives me some very big concern, so I suggest you head over to gabriel weinberg blog: http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ and watch some of the interviews, or look for patio11 entries and read them, you may need that knowledge to gain traction.
>> You don't need a business plan , but you need to know how you will make money.
Agreed.
>> >You NEED a market analysis : you don't even need to spend money for this. Just do yourself a favor, make some research and set a clear target audience.
I have done some research but I don't have concrete numbers. See my other post about general lack of exposure and trust in buying/selling online in Asian subcontinent.
> >you NEED a real IDEA , not an idea that will change every week, you can change how you plan to make money, but your idea can't keep changing every week, to see what will click, nothing will click in some weeks, you may need a lot of luck for that.
I should have worded myself better. My base idea is the same. The differentiators might change(I think will change) with time. How I plan to make money is more or less going to be simply charging users to create online stores for me. At least, that's how I see it as of now.
> Ask yourself, why will peoples want to use your product and not shopify, or whatever other service?
I have some differentiators planned. And I am willing to compete on price for the same level of service. Creating the same level of service is easier said than done, but that's what I am attempting.
> you should defend your idea, you should tell uss why it's more than an idea, ever heard the saying: ideas are worth nothing!?
Circular reasoning? Ideas are worth nothing and I should defend my idea?
I belong to the "ideas mean nothing" camp. And yes, right now it's just an idea. It would evolve to more than an idea when I have built it.
> keep in mind many peoples on HN have been there, and they give advices to help you, at least most of us.
> Your SEO approach gives me some very big concern, so I suggest you head over to gabriel weinberg blog: http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ and watch some of the interviews,
I lost you here. The only thing I mentioned about SEO was it's easier to optimize it when there aren't many hits already coming for it. Take for example Google's Go or the io language. It's extremely hard to optimize searches for queries related to them.
EDIT: I think I misunderstood you here. Your point probably was to optimize it for related terms. Like if someone searches for "online store", shopyist.com should feature among the top results. I have some plans for it. I am quite comfortable working on it myself. I would rope in SEO guy if my approach proves to be futile.
I have read gabriel's blog. I am checking patio11 entries. Thanks for pointing.
I realize that. Why else would I post on HN? I am prepared for the negative criticism coming my way. I would pay attention to some and ignore the rest. If all I wanted was to do what someone else told me, I would have kept my job:-)
> On a more serious note, I am not selling out or going to ask for capital ever.
You are thinking a TON of steps ahead. You have nothing. Ideas are cheap.
> I didn't feel the need to do research to prove that people are interested in selling things online and e-commerce is hard and if you are a merchant
That is NOT what it means to do market research. There are always competitors in 99.9% of startup businesses. And the 0.1% that actually are truly unique don't just magically stake their claim and stay that way forever-- imitators and competitors emerge.
The most basic market research you need to do is to identify the size of the market you're attacking. Put a real number on that somehow. It may be guesswork, but do some serious digging.
Then you want to figure out how much your competitors are making: estimate their costs, their profit margins, etc.
Based on where your competitors fit in, you may decide that you can't compete on price and that changes your whole approach. If you have an idea to open a 24/7 grocery store in a town that has a Wal-Mart, you're probably not going to be able to beat a 2% profit margin coupled with specially negotiated prices. You may however be able to cater to a niche audience like college students by offering additional services, like making hot sandwiches (drunk kids love chicken parms at 3am).
These are the kind of decisions that affect the entire direction of the company.
> If they aren't selling it online already, it's only because the services aren't up to the mark, and that would be a good thing for me.
No, actually there are myriad reasons why someone would not be selling online right now. Maybe they haven't ever heard of Shopify? Or maybe they don't trust Shopify to handle their setup? These are marketing challenges, not necessarily technical ones. Just being a great, determined coder does not guarantee you will be successful.
Also:
You mentioned you're quitting your job in 2 months to do this full time. Why? Do you have a ton of cash that you can do that? When do you expect to break even? How long can you survive on no salary? What are your expenses?
Don't let me (or anyone else here) discourage you. Just have a real plan and put some real effort into the business side of things or make a disclaimer that tells us you're rich and aren't in it for the money. :)
"The most basic market research you need to do is to identify the size of the market you're attacking."
I'm sorry but that's wrong. These numbers you mention serve no purpose whatsoever. "Online commerce is a x billion market and x% of people aren't happy with current options", that's just marketing speak (and I mean that in a bad way, this time).
I outlined other extensions, but that is the very start of all marketing research. I don't see how you can possibly just launch into a project without having any clue of how much money there is to be made in the area.
The approach above is important because you need to be able to estimate how much revenue you should expect at various levels of growth. I suppose for me it's about whether I just want to have faith that my product is viable because I would use it, or I want to have a ballpark estimate that tells me how much I can realistically expect to get out of the company.
How much can someone make at selling online commerce software? Don't you think that's an important question to have some handle on?
> but that is the very start of all marketing research.
Call it marketing research, but I am just interested in the potential market. I am reasonably sure there are many people who want to sell things and there are many who already are trading online.
For me, the crux is how do I attract people who need this service but aren't aware of it. Unfortunately, I don't know how to go about it. In other thread, it is suggested it's mainly trial and error and I go with talking to actual customers and figuring out why they aren't selling/buying online. Things would be easier if I figure out my niche market and there needs.
I respectfully disagree with your number analysis. My analysis is going to be vague. I have calculated the initial development cost(which is just the cost of living of 2 partners; we are paying our own expenses, no overheads for the product) and the server cost for initial days. I have plans for bootstrapping. I am reasonably sure the number analysis or the focus group stuff never translates to real figures. Shopify is at 6000 which is far, far less than any number analysis will come up with. In short, I know my investment, I have a vague idea how much I am going to charge and how long it will take for me to break even. Other than this, the only research I will be putting on will be in finding a way to reach out to potential customers.
> The approach above is important because you need to be able to estimate how much revenue you should expect at various levels of growth.
I would say that sounds good in theory but never works in practice. Can you point out some evidence(anecdotal) that things worked out as per the estimates? I am talking about the revenue estimation. I think there isn't a way to actually, successfully predict it. You can make an educated guess, but that's that.
> How much can someone make at selling online commerce software?
I honestly think there isn't a correct answer to that question. And I am not selling commerce software, I am offering software as a service over the web.
> You are thinking a TON of steps ahead. You have nothing. Ideas are cheap.
Agreed.
> The most basic market research you need to do is to identify the size of the market you're attacking. Put a real number on that somehow. It may be guesswork, but do some serious digging.
I will try. For now, I don't see much traction in Asian sub-continent in selling or buying things online. I will try to do some research and convert it to real numbers. I have been researching people's horror stories about selling/buying things online. The primary reason generally boils down to late payments from the payment gateways. I am considering acting as a payment gateway to have the clients out of the inconvenience loop.
The other reason is people don't have much faith here in Asian sub-continent in buying goods online. That is changing and I hope to tap into it.
> Based on where your competitors fit in, you may decide that you can't compete on price
The current plan is to compete primarily on price. Of course, that implies that the services are at par with the competitor.
> Then you want to figure out how much your competitors are making: estimate their costs, their profit margins, etc.
I have done some cost analysis based on my server costs and how much I am going to charge. I am hosting on Google App Engine and I am calculating the server costs based on that. We are developing without salary so the dev costs are zero. I am planning to compete on price.
> Maybe they haven't ever heard of Shopify? Or maybe they don't trust Shopify to handle their setup?
Both of the reasons are true for the demographics I have digged into.
> You mentioned you're quitting your job in 2 months to do this full time. Why?
Technically, I already have resigned. But the legal notice period is 2 months.
> Do you have a ton of cash that you can do that? When do you expect to break even? How long can you survive on no salary? What are your expenses?
I am bootstrapping. For 2 months, I would be working nights to build it. After that, I would be looking for some freelance work to sustain me. I have a miniature services profile http://defiance.in and I know a couple of people who can use my services. That's not a priority. The work division would be 70(product)-30(services).
> Don't let me (or anyone else here) discourage you.
Nah, it's good to see a varied response(mostly negative). Keeps me on track.
EDIT Somehow the formatting got screwed. Correcting it.
You didn't claim anything in particular, but you did ask everyone what they thought, and this person did tell you what they thought (though, not exactly sugar-coated). :)
Yes. And I agreed with some and disagreed with rest. Nothing personal. I appreciate his taking time to read and review the post. And yours too:-).
This isn't false modesty. Sitting in a closed room and trying to build something which I suppose people will use takes me nowhere. Any sort of negative/positive feedback is why I am posting it on HN.
Bit abrasive, but hard to disagree with the details of your comment.
irahul, I also didn't find much in your blog post that made me think you were onto something or that it would be interesting to follow your progress. FWIW.
However, we should all be way less dick-ish about encouraging would-be entrepreneurs regardless of how shallow their ideas appear. It reflects well on us as a community if we encourage people before we put them down.
After all, how many posts about embracing failure get posted on this site, right?