> The problem is you need to get people to actually follow it and in california for some reason no one does.

This problem isn't specific to this law. There are many laws which aren't being enforced, but do exist. I'm from NL, and we're known for using bicycles a lot, and this is true. Yet bicyclers don't use their hand to show the way they go, they drive through red light, drive without light, and drive on the wrong side of the road all the time. And they get away with it because the cops aren't enforcing the rules.

> It's a completely fair law; it's easy to follow, and it benefits everyone. blocking intersections DOES CAUSE GRIDLOCK. IF YOU STOP BLOCKING INTERSECTIONS, GRIDLOCK WILL GO AWAY. Get this through your head!

Another reason it isn't working is due to selfishness plus ignorance. Inform drivers. Heck, teach it during driver license exams.

So,

1) Inform the users (in this case the general public).

2) Enforce the rules.

I would like to add laws need to be simple to explain, but I'm not so sure on how to describe that point.

I'm sure that people do know, but selfishness drives (pun not intended) people to do it. When there was a horrible freeze down here a few years back, traffic became gridlocked. Yes, the lack of traction caused issue, but the main problem was that everyone was hellbent on getting home without regard to how the flow of traffic normally works.

I witnessed gridlock happen. At a particularly odd, 6-way intersection, people started edging the cars into the intersections. The light would change, cross traffic would get pissed, and then they'd edge around the blocking traffic creating a snaked grid. As cars moved out the way in the cross, the other section would block more and more until the whole intersection was blocked. It was a beautiful tragedy of bucket crabs[0] stopping progress for all. That's when I pulled into a nearby lot, called a friend, and just crashed with them for the night.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

For what it's worth, I was taught to sit in the intersection when making a left turn in driver's ed.

Maybe it's an east west thing, but here is a video of a guy complaining about people who DON'T enter the intersection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_bcjCOzob4

Again, he is saying that the proper thing to do is to enter the intersection and sit, regardless.

So, it seems like the issue may be that in some areas this behavior is promoted (even in drivers ed classes) and in others it's illegal.

Of course, I am not from a large city that deals with gridlock, so that may be part of the difference.

If there is no space in the lane you're driving into, whether turning or going straight, you should not enter the intersection. That video just doesn't deal with the case of the lane you're turning into being full already.

You're supposed to enter the intersection to make a restricted turn across oncoming traffic. Though I believe only one car should do it at a time.

It's different from gridlock because you know that when the oncoming traffic stops, there is somewhere for your car to go.

Except that you block the view for oncoming vehicles turning the opposite direction (their left). A properly labeled intersection has white lines (in the US, other places may use something else) that indicate where to stop, and if engineered properly, stopping before these white lines leaves a clear view.

which doesn't matter because after the oncoming traffic gets the red light you take your left and are no longer blocking anyone's view.

Huh? You are still blocking the view and preventing the other side from turning left safely until the traffic clears and you can turn.

It annoys me as well when people don't enter the intersection on green when waiting for oncoming traffic to clear so that they can turn left. However I don't think it's related to the gridlock discussion unless the road you are turning onto is backed all the way up to the intersection, so that you will not be able to complete the turn even when oncoming traffic clears. In that case I believe you should not enter the intersection.

Your comment is not about gridlock.

You are supposed to enter the intersection when turning left (then turn when safe), but not if there is no room to complete your turn in the target lane.

The whole point is to not have people clogging the intersection and preventing movement when the lights change. That's what creates gridlock instead of just a backup on one street.

I would appreciate if anyone can point to any noteworthy studies documenting the impact on traffic flow that avoidable gridlock can have, I would like to contact administrators in my city to get them to consider a public education campaign to teach drivers about turning lanes and pedestrians about walk signals. The combination of these two things means at rush hour we're often lucky if we get 2 cars at a time through a light (1 lane plus turning lane, driver trying to turn leaving his ass in the main lane preventing anyone else from passing, meanwhile pedestrians don't respect walking stop signal, so sometimes the turning driver can't even make it through after the light has turned red as then the main traffic is coming, as they even often have to wait for someone crossing).

There is a similar law in the UK, which works well and is enforced automatically through the use of ANR cameras at junctions. (As I know to my cost, since I misjudged and ended up stationary with my back wheels on the yellow hatching.)

Block an intersection in Chicago and people will usually make you feel like you're a bad person and you did a bad thing. I've seen people nearly pull onto the sidewalk to get out of an intersection they were blocking.

Similar in Manhattan ... every intersection has large signs that say, "Don't Block the Box". Driving there has made me more conscientious when driving in other areas that don't seem to enforce this at all.

It's a good law, but not always easy to follow. Sometimes traffic is moving along slowly, and then suddenly stops when you're already into the intersection. This mainly happens when you're immediately behind a large vehicle like a city bus and can't see what's further up ahead.

You don't have to predict whether your exit will be clear. You just wait until you _can_see_ it's clear.

In the UK, it's pretty simple: "You may enter a yellow box junction when your exit is clear and there is enough space on the other side of the junction for your vehicle to clear the box completely without stopping."

It's not complicated. It just requires an incentive (don't break the rule, don't pay a 1000 GBP fine).

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-rou...

Though it might not be obvious to American drivers, this is the solution.

There will always be that driver who attempts to change lanes mid-intersection to get into an opening first; that's part of what motivates American drivers to enter the intersection before their exit is clear.

(Lane changes within the intersection are illegal in the US, but rarely enforced.)

American drivers also accelerate quickly only to brake desperately, which creates "openings" for rapid lane changes as well as more trouble staying out of intersections. In spite of higher accidents, more fuel costs, and even occasional tickets (for not signalling properly), this is a persistent driver behavior in many areas like California.

False. In California and some other states the vehicle code doesn't prohibit changing lanes in an intersection. Although depending on the circumstances an officer might cite you for an unsafe lane change.

That might fly in the land of socialism but here on the free side of the lake sitting at the intersection while the light is green will just encourage people to take their "right on red" in front of you ensuring you never make it across, unless of course you're at an intersection where the locals have been deemed to be idiots and are not allowed to take a right on red.

Yes but if traffic is moving slow and you're at a stale green light then you simply don't enter the intersection until you know you can get through it. Sure, you might miss the light, but blocking the intersection means everyone your blocking will miss it instead.

Here in Europe people often enter roundabouts and junctions before the exits are clear and it is against traffic law, the reason given for it being a wrong thing to do is that there should be a clear path through for emergency vehicles. Surely that is reason enough to implement a law in US states?

Which part of Europe? According to everyone I know in Sweden (including myself) it is really frowned upon to do that. If you enter without being sure that you'll be able to exit in time you're a massive jerk.

From the UK originally, now living in Norway. Norwegians drivers are 50% ok-ish but often irrational, 50% massive jerk imo.

From the UK here too, I've been living in Norway for 30 years now and Norwegian drivers only really started to get the hang of roundabouts and pedestrian crossings (zebra crossings) about five years ago. In the Drammen area at least.

Lost count of the number of times I have been almost run down on pedestrian crossings but it's much better now than it was.

One thing that is very good here is that everyone gets out of the way of emergency vehicles very promptly.

I work with a guy who got a fine and points for not stopping at a zebra crossing in Holmestrand, and the person the police meant he should stop for wasn't even crossing. Apparently the rule is that you should stop even if they look like they might cross.

My biggest pet peeve is that many people don't seem to understand slip roads and tailgating is rife. Also that patience is a virtue, if I'm in the middle of a 3 point turn on a country road then don't drive around me, just wait the 4 more seconds it will take me complete the maneuver. And parallel parking, don't get me started.

I see this all the time: A group of (say) 3 cars enters the intersection when there is plenty of space for 3 cars on the other side of the intersection. One of the first two drivers stops way short, leaving the third car stranded in the intersection. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you "know".

No, it's very easy. Never enter the intersection unless you can make it all the way across. Even if the light is green you stop at the intersection if you don't have room to go on the other side.

So sit and wait for a couple seconds for a spot to be open before you move across the intersection.