> Seriously, fuck you for acting like the only way to become a respectable or successful developer is the path you picked.
Can you name me the respectable, successful, known developers that did not get a college degree? I mean, I can think of a few who were in the math/CS program of a top-tier school, who started a company on the side that took off, and dropped out since they were already on a rocket ship. I can also think of a few like John Carmack who just dropped out, but would still fit that category. Although...Carmack has been very straightforward about what he knows, does not know, and is learning, and sometimes I'm surprised that he is just learning a topic I had already studied indepth as an undergraduate.
While people like this are few and far between, I can name many more successful and respectable programmers who have a college degree. Who are the majority.
I look at this equanimously, while you seem to take it very personally. In my experience, those who spent four years at college studying calculus, computational complexity, backtracking, 1st/2nd/3rd normal form, how floating point numbers are stored in memory etc. are usually better than those who have not. That doesn't mean someone who slacked through school for four years is always better than someone who did not go to school for four years. It just means more often than not, someone with four years study of foundational computer science is better than someone without it.
You said you've been at this for three years - so 2012 or so. The tech economy (and to a lesser extent the broader economy) has been booming, as can be evidenced from stories here on HN. You seem to be getting upset...over a comment on HN! Let's see how you do when the economy tanks like it did in 2008-2009. Let's see how you do when tech jobs crash with the dot-coms like they did in 2000-2001. When suddenly the few job postings which appear will say "BSCS required". Why wouldn't they, because in those times, they'll still be flooded with dozens of resumes with people with BSCS's. By then you may have a mortgage, a car, two kids.
"Senior Application Engineer @ Slack...Here are a few extra things that would lift you up a couple of notches in our eyes: * Academic background in computer science (BSc or MSc)"
That's the #1 thing they have on their "nice to haves" list. I can assure you - when we go from these go-go unicorn times to a 2000-2001 or 2008 recession, at a time when you need work the most, I can guarantee you that their #1 "nice to have" will move up into the required column.
When the economy takes a dive like it does every eight years or so, and you have a mortgage and two kids, and you're a fifty-something unemployed coder with no degree and gaps in his technical knowledge who refused to take the bull by the horns at a time when you could have (two night class a year over twenty years would get you a degree by the age of 48), you will look back in enormous regret that you did not spend 90 minutes twice a week going to night class to earn a BSCS.
I've never seen much evidence that great software engineers always have degrees. In fact, the best ones I know don't have CS degrees.
You're acting as if your example of the 50-something engineer without a degree is starting his career. The more plausible scenario is that his days of needing a degree to prove himself were over decades ago. He's getting jobs based on the knowledge and experience he gained at work, and if he isn't, he's been doing it wrong.
Imagine you had spent years and a lot of money studying 1'st normative forms. You have a lot of pride in in this knowledge... it represents a significant investment in time and money and makes you feel special. Suddenly, a 3 month bootcamp is insinuating it can turn out developers making almost what you are. You may just get a little dicky.
But I would guess there are at least a few shop owning mechanics who make as much as the highly degreed engineers designing the parts they install. And no shortage of plumbers making more than people who have graduate level knowledge of Latin. It's not fair. Life isn't fair. But from what I see, life rewards practical know-how... which may or may not entail academic credentials and esoteric knowledge.
Nobody is insinuating that they'll be competing with you. I had a class of 18, I'm one of two who ended up as a back end developer. It wouldn't surprise you much to learn that the two of us were both Math majors. The rest were design-y people who wanted to expand their job prospects and ended up as front end developers. I mean this in the nicest of ways to front end developers, but your algorithms mean jack-shit to them.
As one of those few back end developers, I would HOPE I'm not competing with you for a job, as that would then have been a waste of my time and money. That being said, 4 years down the road of real world experience, I doubt there will be any separation between myself and someone with a CS degree and 4 years of work experience. Real life converges. From my couple years post-GA, I'm perfectly capable of talking the talk with the CS majors who think the two letters give them superpowers.
Again, nobody is implying 3 months will match your 4 years. However, thinking that 3 months of immersion doesn't give you enough knowledge to gain the REAL knowledge on the job would be ignorant. I'm reasonably confident if you blindfolded me and dumped me in France, I'd be speaking french in 3 months. I doubt I'd be able to appreciate The Count Of Monte Cristo, but I'd be more than capable of navigating day to day life.
>That being said, 4 years down the road of real world experience, I doubt there will be any separation between myself and someone with a CS degree and 4 years of work experience.
That depends entirely on what you do in those 4 years. If you spend that time studying algorithms, data structures, graph theory, discrete math, and the theory of computation, then you may be right.
If you spend those 4 years making CRUD apps, then there will still be a large gap.
I speak from experience by the way. I was a professional programmer for 5 years before I went back to get my CS degree. There were so many things that I didn't know that I didn't know.
It's the difference between spending a week banging your head against a wall or spending 20 minutes realizing your problem is just a variant of a graph theory problem that was solved 50 years ago.
> There were so many things that I didn't know that I didn't know.
I think that puts it very well. It's not just what people know they don't know, it's what they don't know they don't know. That's where it really hits them.
I understand that you feel very strongly about your perspective, and notice that the arguments you make rely on your personal opinions and experiences. I wish to assure you, that you feel this makes your arguments compelling does not speak well for the college education you prize so strongly.
Can you name me the respectable, successful, known developers that did not get a college degree? I mean, I can think of a few who were in the math/CS program of a top-tier school, who started a company on the side that took off, and dropped out since they were already on a rocket ship. I can also think of a few like John Carmack who just dropped out, but would still fit that category. Although...Carmack has been very straightforward about what he knows, does not know, and is learning, and sometimes I'm surprised that he is just learning a topic I had already studied indepth as an undergraduate.
While people like this are few and far between, I can name many more successful and respectable programmers who have a college degree. Who are the majority.
I look at this equanimously, while you seem to take it very personally. In my experience, those who spent four years at college studying calculus, computational complexity, backtracking, 1st/2nd/3rd normal form, how floating point numbers are stored in memory etc. are usually better than those who have not. That doesn't mean someone who slacked through school for four years is always better than someone who did not go to school for four years. It just means more often than not, someone with four years study of foundational computer science is better than someone without it.
You said you've been at this for three years - so 2012 or so. The tech economy (and to a lesser extent the broader economy) has been booming, as can be evidenced from stories here on HN. You seem to be getting upset...over a comment on HN! Let's see how you do when the economy tanks like it did in 2008-2009. Let's see how you do when tech jobs crash with the dot-coms like they did in 2000-2001. When suddenly the few job postings which appear will say "BSCS required". Why wouldn't they, because in those times, they'll still be flooded with dozens of resumes with people with BSCS's. By then you may have a mortgage, a car, two kids.
Your argument is not with me. Here's a line from a job posting on SF Bay Craigslist - ( http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/egr/5278943482.html )
"Senior Application Engineer @ Slack...Here are a few extra things that would lift you up a couple of notches in our eyes: * Academic background in computer science (BSc or MSc)"
That's the #1 thing they have on their "nice to haves" list. I can assure you - when we go from these go-go unicorn times to a 2000-2001 or 2008 recession, at a time when you need work the most, I can guarantee you that their #1 "nice to have" will move up into the required column.
When the economy takes a dive like it does every eight years or so, and you have a mortgage and two kids, and you're a fifty-something unemployed coder with no degree and gaps in his technical knowledge who refused to take the bull by the horns at a time when you could have (two night class a year over twenty years would get you a degree by the age of 48), you will look back in enormous regret that you did not spend 90 minutes twice a week going to night class to earn a BSCS.