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I remember it was controversial and "the beginning of the end" when you no longer had to host at a 4-digit number and could, gasp, use a string for your URL: www.geocities.com/mywebpage instead of www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5372 . The "Acropolis" is because the main top-level "neighborhoods" quickly filled up so you had to pick a sub-neighborhood, making your URL even longer.

Another fun aspect of all this is all their neighborhoods had unpaid "community leaders". The hot neighborhoods got tons of leaders so your in was to pick an "up and coming" neighborhood and apply to be a leader there. All the neighborhoods had themes and rules which the community leaders enforced but they weren't strictly enforced. When GeoCities IPO'd, they threw all their community leaders a few pre-IPO shares and swag, which was super fun and appreciated as a high school student. :)


So basically a precursor to Reddit


Your story reminds me of when Microsoft acquired Hotmail in the '90s and they tried migrating from FreeBSD & Solaris onto Windows NT/IIS. Having the world's largest email service running on the Windows stack would have been a huge endorsement. It took years until they were successful.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/ms-moving-hotmail-to-win2000-s...

https://jimbojones.livejournal.com/23143.html


Ha, I worked on that project. That drove a lot of good requirements into Windows that set us up for web based services (eventually)


Are you free to expand upon your role and perhaps some of the actual tech/fixes that made it back into Windows?


Seriously, Windows 2000 was one of the most stable OS back in the day, rock solid. I used 2000 server as a desktop OS, instead of 98.

unlike shit show that was windows 95/98/ME


While I don't disagree with that, in my experience all Windows instability on WinNT family (and I tightly worked with all end user versions of Win from 16 bit W3.11 to the recent Win11 with a very few exceptions) are caused by faulty hardware and/or bad drivers that can't handle it. I don't think I could remember any issue that I can't attribute to bad HW/3rd party driver.

Wrt Win95 & it's kind - all processes in that family essentially run in a single address space, and data "isolation" were "achieved" only through obscurity. If you knew some magic constants that were easily obtainable from disassembly, you could do anything there. So no wonder it was as bad as the worst program you've installed..


Almost all instability I’ve had with modern Windows or Macs has been caused by corporate installed malware - MDM software and virus software.


Haha, yeah, that crap adds indeed


Windows 2000 server was peak windows. All the subsequent versions just got harder to maintain as they gradually ruined the user interface. Nobody cares about the UI on consumer windows but if you’re spending a lot of time in RDP the vista based server products are terrible.

I don’t hate windows 2019 but Linux is better, easier, faster and a relief after any futile attempts to use IIS or sql server in 2025.


windows xp x64 edition was pretty slick; and so was NT4. I agree that 2000 was pretty cool, but perhaps a lot of that is design nostalgia. It was very "serious business OS" where XP and Me looked like jellybeans and cartoons. My favorite windows, though, is win 7 ultimate, Steve Ballmer Edition. i was sad when i had to upgrade to winten.

ninja proof: https://i.imgur.com/l29rDVo.jpeg


I get the nostalgia for XP, it was the first windows consumer edition that didn’t suck, but for a server OS 2000 was so lean and easy to manage it makes me wonder how MS lost to Linux. Back then, it was a genuine competition, now you’d have to be crazy to choose windows to deploy anything.


Windows Server still has it's place. AD DS, file services, and SQL Server being the big ones. Linux doesn't have apps that do these things 'better'.


I wish MSFT could build Active Directory and the associated constellation of services on Linux. You can make a reasonable simulacrum with Samba but it isn't as well-integrated.

(My fever dream wish is for a "distribution" of NT that boots in text mode and has an updated Interix subsystem alongside Win32. Throw in ZFS and it would be awesome.)


An NT that boots into text mode wouldn't be terribly useful for software designed for NT today given the high dependency on UI libraries.

I too wish for an NT that was CLI-only, striped of services as much as possible.

     Starting Windows NT...
     
     C:\>
It's too bad Microsoft has no interest as a business in on-prem software.


Server Core is close to what you're talking about re: CLI only.

I agree re: MSFT having no interest in on-prem software. It saddens me.


Core isn't close. It's still a graphical interface.


I guess I misread you, then. I thought you were arguing that a text mode wouldn't be useful. That's why I suggested Server Core. It's CLI, but uselessly framed in a GUI framework.

Like I said in my earlier post, text mode NT is my fever dream fantasy. Maybe you were saying the same thing.


Yes, I was saying the same thing. There are very few applications we could run on a text-mode DOS/Linux-CLI type NT due to the upstream dependencies that require (or implement) a graphical interface.

Text-only mode would be wonderful even if all you could do is look at a blinking cursor.


i never used windows XP, i went from 2000 pro to XP x64 edition, which came out 2 years after XP did.


Maybe, but Win 3.1 was good for me.


After SP2 the worst wrinkles are taken care of. Oh, and skip ever second OS release, of course.

I'm not as much against windows as I uses to be but I'm not budging off Ubuntu LTS even though they too try really hard to rock the boat.


> vista based server products are terrible.

The first generation of tabletised 8/Metro interfaces made me audibly groan every time I had to RDP into machines running 2012.


The stuttering over RDP when the start menu animation tried to slide in the tiles was amazing.


Oh yes. I still have a client that has 2012 and it physically hurts to use


Powershell was 2006, so I suppose the real "peak windows server UX" was 2016 when PS was relatively mature and came out-of-the-box with the latest version.


If MSFT had back ported servicing stack updates to 2016 it would still be usable. As it stands it bogs down unreasonably when applying updates and needs lengthy DISM /CleanupImage processes to be run periodically to reclaim disk space.


I went from 98 to 2000 (rather than ME) and it was an amazing experience. It showed me what an operating system could be like. Of course, what I really wanted was Linux, but I didn't know better at the time.


> Seriously, Windows 2000 was one of the most stable OS back in the day, rock solid. I used 2000 server as a desktop OS, instead of 98.

Really? Oh, compared to other Windows versions...

Because it never came close to the stability of OS/400, Netware 3, AIX, Solaris or even OS/2 v2.


I will fully agree on OS/400, of the operating systems and platforms I have worked with, it is by far the most stable.

That is easier to achieve when your operating system only runs on your own proprietary hardware. (No mess of millions of drivers to write for one).

It worked well for years without any sysadmin touching it.

Well my mom was trained to be the "sys admin", which meant rotating backup tapes.


Part of my 1994's Summer job role. :)


I dunno how to compare stable to stable but I ran Win2k for so long that I got bored with it (something like 5-7 years) and never experienced a single crash. This is coming from a Linux guy btw… so I’m no Microsoft fanboy, just saying, it was as stable as any other stable OS.


Didn't mean to bash you, sorry.

I saw years of uptime on those systems whereas Win2000 iirc needed a reboot for every single update of the OS, and even for applications like IIS or Exchange.

Compared to NT4 it was probably very stable, since I remember telling most clients to just shut it down Friday evening and boot it Monday morning cause the pre-SP4 NT4 could not stay up more than three weeks.

Compare that to AS/400, where we pushed updates all over the country, without warning clients, to system running in hospitals, and there never was even the slightest problem. It sounds irresponsible to do that today, but those updates just worked, all the time and all applications continued to work.


> I saw years of uptime on those systems

This just means security updates were never installed.

(Or you claim that all those operating systems never had kernel-level security issues which seems doubtful...)


Since these systems were from the 90ies they indeed did not get security updates.

Most were only locally connected (for example OS/2 had a Token Ring in one building). The WAN connection (for AS/400) was trusted.


You are comparing supermarket apples (Windows) with localy grown plums (AS400). Even today, Windows is not able to update Office without closing it.


Like IIS running some part of the code in the kernel? ( http.sys ) :x


It has its advantages… but wasn’t done until Svr 2003.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/iis/get-started/introducti...


> It has its advantages

Yeah, the advantages (RCE) were copied by modern web browsers. /s


So it is one of the most successful examples of dogfooding in history?


> Windows that set us up for web based services (eventually)

...and then .NET and SQL Server started shipping for Linux.


SQL Server is really Sybase tho, which was always capable of running on UNIX.

Can't say much more, but I worked on a huge (internal) Sybase ASE on Linux based app (you've _all_ bought products administered on this app ;) ) way back (yes, pre-SSD, multi path fiber I/O to get things fast, failover etc.) and T-SQL is really nice, as is/was ASE and the replication server. Been about 20 years tho, so who knows.


I worked with SQL Server a bit, writing a Rust client for it back in the days. The manual is really good, explaining the protocol clearly. That made it really easy to write a client for it.

Can't say the same for Oracle...


SQL Server uses NT and Win32 APIs, so the SQL team built a platform independent layer. Meaning NT and Win32 is still used by SQL on Linux. It’s pretty cool tech.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sql-server/blog/2016/12/16/s...


Only if you are speaking about SQL Server 7 and earlier, meaning around 2002.

Microsoft SQL Server has long stop being Sybase SQL Server, and works on Linux by making use of Drawbridge.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sql-server/blog/2016/12/16/s...


Of course, that's fair.

I guess wording wise for my comment, the "Hah, they didn't actually write that themselves, they just bought the Sybase rights to everything license" got the better of me :)

To be fair again, from what I hear, SQL server at Microsoft did some nice things on top of Sybase but the base, T-SQL, is just nice overall and by itself. I really want to like Postgres (and I do) but some of the awesome things I had with actual Sybase ASE 20+ years ago, Postgres still does not have. And that was a piece of software that had those features I loved for 10+ years prior to when I started working with it. The app we're talking of here was 15 years old when I worked on it 20+ years ago and it's probably still around and very probably still uses Sybase ASE (tho the actual app was converted from Smalltalk to Java ;)

I also later on had to use Oracle and had the same "WTF? You can't do that?" experience :shrug:


I used to work at a Sybase shop in the late 90's. It was way nicer to work with than Oracle!


There are 2 decades between those 2 points, .NET was -4 y.o. at the first one.


Pre Microsoft hotmail is one of the things I miss about the 'old' internet, logging in with Navigator 3.something in the library at uni.


Links in the original are dead but I think this is the Microsoft doc on “what could Windows do better” - https://web.itu.edu.tr/~dalyanda/mssecrets/hotmail.html


Thanks for linking to this.

The tone and content of this document is shockingly candid and frank. I think it did a ton to make Windows Server a better product. I have a lot of respect for the people at MSFT who reviewed the company's own product in such a critical light.


Businesses are theoretically all about money but end up being driven by pride half the time.


Of course. Why would you expect anything but? Pride is actually a very good driver of change if you ask me because people often do their best work when they are proud of what they are building.


Perhaps ego is a better term. Concretely, why migrate hotmail from unix to Windows except due to ego? The NPV has to be negative here.


Makes sense to me. After all, businesses are run by humans, who have egos to satisfy.


Engineers might take pride in their work, but on this level in a big organization, I rather suspect turf wars as motivation.


> It took years until they were successful.

The 90s were the dark ages of cloud computing. It was the age of system administrator, desktop apps, Usenet, and the start of the internet as a public service. At the time concepts such as infrastructure as code, cloud, and continuous deployment, were unheard of.

AWS, which today we take for granted, was launched on 2002, and back then it started as a way to monetize Amazon's existing shared IT platform.

Of course migrating anything back then was a world of pain, specially when it's servers running on different OSes. It's like the rewrite from hell, that can even cover the OS layer. Of course it takes years.


> At the time concepts such as infrastructure as code, cloud, and continuous deployment, were unheard of.

There existed different names and solutions for things like cloud. I worked with Grid Engine in 2000 after Sun acquired Gridware, but that project started in 1993. By 2000 we were experimenting with running Star Office on the grid and serving UI to thin clients (kind of what Google Docs or Office 365 do now, but on completely different stack).


IIS was wide open in Win NT/2k days. It took Microsoft some good years to patch the holes.


We're well past 2016, but Stratechery had an opinion that Dropbox focused too much on infrastructure projects like this and would have had more success focused on improving product/market fit.

"That's why I actually find this announcement really disappointing. Apparently Dropbox has been devoting significant resources for at least two years to a project that will no doubt have a positive impact on the bottom line but a minimal impact on the top line. It's all well-and-good (and honestly impressive) to announce 500 million registered users, but the reluctance to disclose both active users and especially the number (and size) of its business customers speaks even more loudly. How might have the product and company evolved if the company had continued to rely on AWS and devoted its resources to fixing its product-market fit problem?"

https://stratechery.com/2016/dropbox-leaves-aws-should-ups-a...


Perhaps the answer to this lies in the incentives for VCs. The current dropbox strategy produces a sustainable, lifestyle business for its employees and customers. They are happy with a product that meets their needs. It's not what VCs want at all; they want either total domination or acquisition. The middle-ground is uninteresting to them. So, had they stayed with AWS, they may have bought a 10% chance at 10x more VC return, and a 90% chance that they are bought up and absorbed into OneDrive.

I prefer the current outcome to a swing for the fences.


I don't think it would be possible for them to stay with AWS considering their storage volume usage. As soon as the storage was out everything else has followed as well


I dunno, if you can’t provide enough value to adequately mark up bulk purchases of commodity Cloud storage, what exactly are you selling?


Dropbox's business IS storage, which means running on top of storage is always going to be a threat and cut into their margins. What incentive does AWS have to give Dropbox a really sweet S3 deal? They know Dropbox needs the storage. It's like why it's better for a business to own the building its in, because if you become successful, your landlord has the incentive to increase your rent. This isn't about if AWS can provide a compelling bulk rate for S3, it's about if your business lives or dies based on the AWS deal renegotiation.


I guess that depends on whether you think cloud storage is a commodity.

Surely despite their business being storage, Dropbox would be foolish to design and manufacture their own hard disks?


No, I don't think that Dropbox should manufacture its own hard drives. The main reason is that switching hard drive manufacturers can be done piecemeal as you need to buy them. Getting data out of S3 if the contract negotiations go bad can cost more than storing it. It's just very different economics and level of vulnerability given the two.


Cloud storage before all the major cloud players were even a thing, for starters?


Sure, that was a great feature in 2007. (S3 existed when Dropbox was founded, FWIW.)

It eventually stopped being a differentiating source of value, and trying to out-commodity the CSP’s on storage cost at scale seems like a bad strategy to bring value back to the product. At tremendous effort you make it possible to lower prices by 20% or whatever, in order to keep the same profit on an undifferentiated product. Who cares?


Dropbox is a company with thousands of engineers. They should be able to focus on both aspects.

It seems Dropbox has an issue with execution. It already has a set of customers. They should be able upsell other things. They are trying with Dropbox Sign.

But other features like Paper and Photos don't seem to do well. Paper is deprecated, I think. Failing to expand to a doc-like saas is a very bad sign, when your customers use Dropbox to store documents.


> Dropbox is a company with thousands of engineers. They should be able to focus on both aspects.

This highlights a big issue in online discourse, the false dichotomy is everywhere. "why didn't they allocate resources in solving world hunger instead of uber for furbies" Because they chose not to, not because it was an either-or.


Very different from the airline industry which still honors lifetime flight and lounge passes sold decades ago.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/20/mark-cuban-bought-an-america...


That’s not the story I’ve heard. What I’ve read are stories of airlines who regretted the deals and went after those who used them extensively, looking for excuses to revoke them:

https://thehustle.co/aairpass-american-airlines-250k-lifetim...

Anyhow, the Mark Cuban article says almost nothing about how the airline treated him, it’s just a light human interest story about an unusual and quirky thing a famous person did.


If the claims in the article are true around 2.5k cancellations and ticket reselling, I'd say they found great reasons to revoke these airpasses.


The immediate catalyst was the EU, but this is likely what Apple wanted all along by launching ATT and running all its PR about privacy. Users pay instead of advertisers, and Apple gets its 30%.


I interned on Encarta one summer shortly before the fall, and 11 years ago I wrote a Quora answer about why I think it failed, which amusingly still gets upvotes: https://qr.ae/pK2pGA


The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier. That eliminates all Asian competition and the US airlines get a monopoly even though they barely fly there and many of these flights are codeshares being operated by Asian airlines!


Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu.

I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) and those who enjoy its incredible outdoor environment. Some of the best snorkeling and scuba diving in the world is right here, and as for hiking: we've been hiking very frequently for the two years since we arrived and haven't gotten bored yet. Depending on where you go on the island, the terrain and plant life looks very different.


No Target, but there's a very good Kmart! Plus, anyone with a military connection has access to the exchanges, which are effectively tax-free Targets.

Most of the domestic tourists I saw around Guam (I was stationed there for a stretch) were divers. I don't know that I'd recommend it for the average non-diving traveler over cheaper-to-get-to alternatives unless it's someone who's specifically looking for the remote character of Guam (and in that case, there are less developed islands that can be gotten to more cheaply).


I thought about retiring in Guam someday since Medicare would actually work there. But I can’t imagine it is much nicer than Bali or some parts of Thailand I’m also thinking about (if my health is good 20 years later), and it’s definitely more expensive than.


Bali is a victim of it's success unfortunately.


OTOH I would guesstimate Guam to be much more politically stable than Bali or Thailand.


Thailand perhaps (although I'd note that political instability in Thailand is carefully done to avoid disturbing the tourism industry in anyway).

But it's been many years (25? If you count Timor crisis?) since any significant political disturbance in Bali/Indonesia and only 3 years since a coup attempt in Guam/USA.


I visited Thailand multiple times just after military coups, and the only thing I noticed was more things getting poached from my checked luggage. Oh, and sometimes the big shopping malls in Bangkok are closed.

Bali did have that bombing just after 9/11 a while back. Sort of ancient history anyways, but I've loved my trips there.


The Bali bombing was in 2002. I don't think that counts as political instability unless 9/11 counts as political instability.


Bali is incredibly hot and humid


Is it really that different from Guam? It seems to have a similar hot and humid climate, they are both islands of similar size, Bali is just closer to the equator.


It may not be that different from Guam, but I was comparing it (I guess, without making that clear, my bad) to more temperate retirement areas, than Guam.

I'm sure it's based on preference and tolerance, but very hot humid heat just saps all the enjoyment of life out of me when I'm outside, unless I'm on a sailboat or in a pool with a cold drink in my hand.


Bali has a bunch of weird microclimates, so it isn't that bad. Like, you can just go up to the volcano and the temperature is really different.


My family and I loved our time there (Navy as well).

We almost retired there, but my son's health condition(s) precludes that.

Space-A is how we flew back during our tour there, and if you know the tricks it work great. If you don't it's a nightmare.


My father was stationed in Guam for a couple of years during the Korean War but he was in the Navy. And then when I was getting mustered out of the Navy 40 years ago I landed on Guam briefly on a flight out of Kobe Japan, on my way to Hawaii


I get the feeling that Hawaii takes all the US tourism for tropical islands. In a hypothetical scenario where Hawaii didn't exist maybe Guam would be more popular?

But maybe it's better this way.


It’s so much farther than Hawaii that my guess is that overall tourism numbers would be much less.


> those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.)

I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amount of social media one consumes daily.


> it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amount of social media one consumes daily.

Well, you've managed to one-up them in how tiresome and cliched your talking point is.


There is quite a bit of difference between the inconvenience of not having a Target that gets frequent shipments of a wide variety of goods which help ease daily life, and not having the amenities of a 15M person city versus a 1.5M person city.

My biggest pain point of remote island life is not having access to a variety of affordable dairy foods.


I understand. That's why I wrote "(there's everything here)". To clarify, I don't like those people because of their thankless and complaining attidude to the life.


I mean some like hyperdense megacities and everything that comes with it bleeding edge/underground scene for X, 24 hours life, close proximity to people. It's completely alien to me as well but why look down on people liking different things?


It's interesting. I live in London UK, which some might think of as a megacity - though when I look at the biggest cities in the orient (Singapore, Shenzhen etc) London feels like Hobbiton in comparison. I suppose what you're used to becomes your "zero line", and one inevitably assesses other places relative to that.


Nobody wants to be the only gay in the village.


Guam’s population is 169 thousand, about 10% of the city where you live. It is an island 3,800 miles from Hawaii. I doubt that this situation is comparable to yours.


169.000 ? Funny, I live in a city of 15.000, not even in the city, and think its way too crowded. So much that i'm actually thinking of moving to a 100 ppl village, closest "city" 3000 ppl. Never even been in a starbucks, nor wanting to, I guess preferences differ. Remote work is a blessing.


>>guess preferences differ.

That is a very important realization and self awareness, alaways :)

Fwiw I lived in 600k-2m cities most of my life. I now moved to a 50k city (for love :) ,but problem is it's a satellite city - a 50k city in rural Minnesota or Manitoba will be a local centre with many amenities and a certain vibe. A 50k city on the greater Toronto area is just a commute residential park.

Anyhoo, I always enjoy people complaining about city becoming bigger because... They themselves moved here! If you moved to that 100ppl place you would be the problem, the 101st person- while likely complaining about other people moving in and ruining it for everyone :). It's like when I'm stuck in traffic and people in the car with me get annoyed "where do all these people think they have to be on a Sunday morning???" - erm, just like us you mean? :)


I've visited Charleston and Huntington, WV. I went to all the 'hippy' spots (the only festival in the area, the farmer's market, bar with gigs, a museum on the outskirts). US 50k cities have less infrastructures and cultural events than 10k cities in my country to be honest, i can quite understand your peers (you also have really good small towns like Fayetteville, WV, if you like outdoorsy stuff and physical activities, but I guess when I was 15, kayaking and rock climbing would have gotten old quite fast).


Picking metro areas in a state that has suffered prolonged economic malaise is a bizarre way to make conclusions about the amenities of a typical U.S. midsized city.


Funny thing, I'm originally from Huntington, WV. My fiance has never been to WV, and we're thinking of skipping the trip to Huntington and just meeting my family in Fayetteville for a weekend trip.


It is an interesting idea to explore: Why do humans predominantly want to live in bigger and bigger groups. Sure, there are a few people that want to live out in the country, but cities are big because people want to be there. Humans like groups.


For the vast majority of city dwellers, they are there either because 1) they grew up there and that's where most of their social connections are, or 2) that's where the jobs are. The reason why cities even grew to the size in the first place is because of the economics of the Industrial Revolution - and, in some places like the USSR, deliberate policies to force the rural population into the cities to man all those factories. We don't actually know the real preferences until those factors are out of the equation.


Bigger groups of people allow for better economies of scale and allow for a wider variety of businesses and interests to be catered to.


And more bars, restaurants, theaters. It isn't just economics that drive people to be together. People also like to be together, and bigger groups allow more group activities. Kind of both, in a feedback loop. Economics, jobs, and fun.


Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and:

Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at least during the winter headwinds, Nov-Mar [1]. Passengers can't even get out of the plane, you get to sit on the tarmac and watch the fuel tankers out the window for 45min in the predawn. I wanted to at least get out and see the inside of the terminal but absolutely not. ("Guam: the ultimate skiplagged challenge")

So you won't see this arrangement show up on any ticket engines, and they're not allowed say "Philippine Airlines flies to Guam". Are there any good articles on how current airline treaties affect routes and pricing in the Pacific?

[0]: "Guam replaces Honolulu as stop for PAL flights" https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2006/01/06/315333/guam-re...

[1]: "The one-hour technical stops are required during certain times of the year, particularly during the winter months of November to March, when headwinds are strong enough to affect aircraft flying westward across the Pacific." (to avoid exceeding MTOW)

[2]: discussed on https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/374507-pal-techni...

I'm sure Gordon Lightfoot (RIP) could have sung about treaties...


This is because of 'cabotage' rules, where foreign carriers aren't allowed to sell tickets between two domestic destinations, and except for EU carriers flying within EU countries, this is standard practice all over the world.

Qantas has historically had a similar stop in LAX en route to JFK, although new aircraft will allow them to start making the trip non-stop, in an initiative called 'project sunrise.' [1] I believe they are currently routing that flight with a stop in Auckland as QF3, although they are running AKL-JFK as a 5th freedom with pick-up rights in AKL.

I don't think it's true that it's faster to get to Philippines than Guam from the mainland - you just have to transit in Honolulu. SFO-HNL-GUM on United is 14h15, whereas the non-stop SFO-MNL is 14h35. Philippines only offers limited non-stop options to Manila - just LAX, SFO and JFK - so much of the time you'd be connecting either way, and that eliminates any advantages. After all, Honolulu is pretty much on the way to Guam based on the great circle arc. [2]

[1] https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/our-company/fleet/new-...

[2] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SFO-HNL-GUM,+SFO-MNL


What if you had a medical emergency while on the tarmac in Guam?


Same as if there was a medical emergency anywhere along the flight path. The plane pulls into the nearest gate where you'd be looked after and you get off. The prohibition is on transporting passengers between two domestic points as a single flight or as a single ticket / with stops under 24h - but note that there's nothing to stop you for instance buying a ticket from SFO-NRT and then a separate NRT-GUM ticket both on ANA.

Cabotage is also referred to as the 9th air freedom, for the curious. [1]

The prohibition on cabotage also applies to passenger and cargo ships. [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabotage


I'm sure they'd treat you locally (I wonder if air-rage cases get dropped there unscheduled, too, although I don't think so). It's not like the border is hermetically sealed; just disembarking on those particular flights is not available to passengers or skiplaggers. (To be clear, that's because it's a non-US (Philippine Airlines) flight on a technical stopover in a US territory (Guam)). The limitation is purely legal. The airline treaties distort pricing and competition, otherwise it should be possible to do a 24/48h stopover in Guam, Taipei etc., and even lower your overall ticket price if you're flexible about dates.

If not, a creative itinerary with multiple stopovers like Manila-Guam-Honolulu-Anchorage-Seattle could be interesting.


If you're looking for 'cool itineraries that end in Guam' there's nothing more interesting IMO than the United Island Hopper, a single flight number with 5 stops operated by a 737. Service is between Honolulu and Guam, taking around 14-16 hours, with stops in:

- Majuro in the Marshall Islands (MAJ)

- Kwajalein Atoll in the Marshall Islands (KWA)

- Kosrae in the Federated States of Micronesia (KSA)

- Pohnpei in the Federated States of Micronesia (PNI)

- Chuuk in the Federated States of Micronesia (TKK)

I believe passengers aren't allowed off in at least one, if not two, of the stops because they're basically just a US military base on a rock. [1, 2]

> The limitation is purely legal. The airline treaties distort pricing and competition, otherwise it should be possible to do a 24/48h stopover in Guam, Taipei etc., and even lower your overall ticket price if you're flexible about dates.

Note that you can do this, it just has to be on separate tickets if connections are under 24h. For a connection over 24h, the world is your oyster, so to speak, from a ticketing perspective. Unless you plan to stay at the airport (and only an option in some places with sterile transit) you may need a visa for the intermediate point.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_Hopper

[2] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HNL-MAJ-KWA-KSA-PNI-TKK-GUM


I wish we'd get rid of this rule entirely. Just seems like naked protectionism, no?

If a non-US carrier abides by local regulations, I don't see an issue with letting them run domestic flights.


In the past you could have made an argument about foreign airlines not being held to FAA standards.

But today, FAA knows exactly which jurisdictions regulate airlines to a comparable standard and which don’t. Denying cabotage and other higher rights to those airlines is 100%, as you say, naked protectionism.


It's better than that. Those are IATA rules, and IATA has been functioning as a cartel more or less since it has been founded..


They‘re actually defined by ICAO, a UN agency with states as members. And the actual restrictions are of course a matter of domestic legislation stemming out countries sovereignty over their airspace. These restrictions largely don‘t exist among European Union member states and between Australia and New Zealand.

IATAs cartel like behavior was due to them regulating airline prices and services. This started at a time when governments where still regulating domestic prices thinking that competition on price or service would lead to cutting corners on safety.


You make it sound like that's a US-specific rule, but there's an equivalent rule in basically every country (with some exceptions, the main one being between EU member states).


Two wrongs don't make a right?


No, but they often add up to a stable Nash equilibrium.


Given that many foreign airlines are at least in part government owned, this could be problematic. Do we really want Air China to come in and drastically undercut US based carriers in order to drive them out of business?


Sure? If the Chinese government (or more realistically Qatar or UAE etc) wants to subsidize US business and tourism by making it cheaper to fly within the US it seems like a good thing for the US.

As we've seen, anytime an airline raises prices it is pretty easy for another carrier (or even a brand new carrier) to come in and replace them. So it isn't like a hypothetical foreign government owned carrier could somehow make long term sustained profits.

Let them spend their money on that if they are that dumb!


We don’t want to be in a situation where Beijing can turn off American flights because someone said mean things about Xi.


If there was a monopoly situation (which of course is a big "if") then it's reasonable to have laws requiring specific levels of service from the airline. It's fairly easy to write those laws to force the airline to fly.

If the Chinese state intervenes in US domestic travel affairs then the US has the option to nationalize their fleet. All their assets and operational staff are in the US and the staff aren't going to oppose keeping their jobs...


Unless they are the only option - which should be a matter for the antitrust regulators - it's not really a threat, just an inconvenience.


I guess I just don’t get it then. What’s wrong with the following scenario:

1) China comes in and undercuts US prices.

2) US carriers are unable to compete with a business subsidized by one of the largest economies in the world, and China Air forms a monopoly as it drives competitors out of business.

3) China Air folds, leaving the US with no means of air travel at all.

I’m pretty sure China could outlast any airline in the US in a price war, given how thin the margins that US carriers already operate on are. They don’t have to care about making profits—their only goal is to damage the US economy, as on the world stage it’s a zero-sum game. Any damage to the US is a benefit to China.

So yeah, let them. And what effect do you think it will have on the economy when there are literally zero air carriers left in the United States?


Firstly, the US has a bunch of existing laws to deal with monopolies already. Use them.

And if China Air suddenly folds then the US nationalizes their fleet or some similar intervention. Similar has been done during crises in the banking sector, and similar has been done in other countries when an airline went bust.


>Firstly, the US has a bunch of existing laws to deal with monopolies already. Use them.

That seems to be impossible these days.


I think you are probably mostly familiar with high profile cases in the tech space. Outside that the DoJ has a pretty strong record of success in antitrust cases.

Recent examples include:

* A case involving wage suppression by a secret agreement of poultry procesors in Georgia (May 2023)

* A divestment agreement for ASSA ABLOY AB to take over Spectrum Brand Holding Inc.’s Hardware and Home Improvement division

* An antitrust lawsuit against Activision for esport wage surpression.

See https://www.justice.gov/news/press-releases?f%5B0%5D=facet_t... if you want more

I suspect antitrust action against a Chinese-owned entity that had shutdown travel in the US would be fairly broadly supported.


Very informative. I guess I'm still bitter about what happened with the Microsoft antitrust case in 2001.


>Do we really want Air China to come in and drastically undercut US based carriers in order to drive them out of business?

Given just how horrifically awful the American carriers are, I don't see how this would be a bad thing: Air China couldn't possibly be any worse.


If it's price dumping or heavily government subsidized I suppose not, but if they're just more competitive then I don't see the issue.

Realistically I just don't think that's gonna happen, if they have to abide by local labor laws.


I mean, in principle I agree with you. If Qantas or Lufthansa can come in and run things cheaper and better, I have no problem with letting them try to compete on the open market. But just like I wouldn’t want a US government owned airline to operate in competition with private carriers, I think it would be unfair competition to allow foreign governments to come in and operate any sort of ostensibly private company in the US, particularly one that provides a critical infrastructure service.

The even more difficult question is how to tell whether a foreign company is truly private or is secretly receiving government funding. With no way to collect tax information or audit the books of foreign companies operating in the US, there’s no way to tell.

I don’t think it’s inconceivable that China could set up a shell company to operate super cheap flights on, say, the west coast, with the express purpose of causing that market to collapse, leading to a domino effect as US carriers start to fold. Maybe it would work, and maybe it wouldn’t, but consider that the annual revenue for domestic carriers in 2022 was about $160 billion, and profit was about 1% of that. Given that China’s military budget is estimated at $230 billion, it doesn’t seem at all out of the realm of possibility to me that they might well try, entirely legally, undermine the US economy.

I’m not saying cabotage laws are the only thing preventing this scenario, or that it couldn’t be dealt with should it become apparent that it’s happening, but I think it’s definitely something to be consider when discussing the possibility of opening up any domestic market to foreign competition.


> I wouldn’t want a US government owned airline to operate in competition with private carriers

Why not? Ironically, that is the ultimate solution to the problem you're describing - if we consider this market so critical and so easily disrupted, then having a government-owned service provider that focuses on long-term availability of basic services over profits is a sensible precaution. Private airlines can still compete by offering more/better service for more money, or cheaper service due to less overhead.


United goes direct from Honolulu


You can also take the scenic route from HI to RMI to FSM. I can’t think of any reason to hang out in Majuro, but two of the FSM stops are great sightseeing destinations. On Pohnpei you can visit Nan Madol. If you’re into diving, there’s a huge number of Japanese warships sunk near Chuuk.


This. Used for American Samoa...just make damn sure to make your connection. If it's anything like American Samoa, there are only a few flights a week. The smart move is to arrive a day early in Hawaii and spend the night


Can't you buy 2 separate tickets?


you can but you're going to pay more in general. There are a lot of pricing rules around layovers that make it cheaper than buying tickets separately (basically to give the airlines flexibility to utilize all their planes).


That's going to be at least twice as expensive as one ticket with a layover.


The issue then is if you have checked luggage.


So get your luggage? Deboarding, going through immigration, getting luggage, and going through customs takes no more than 45 minutes at Narita. Give yourself a 2 hour layover to be safe.

Or pack like Rick Steves and just bring a backpack with the essentials.


I don't think they ever meant it's impossible to get there, just unnecessarily difficult (or expensive) due to a regulation that is bring unnecessary hassle (which is exactly what you are describing, but, somehow, using a tone that it's something smooth).


They don't let you check bags right before the plane takes off - AFAIK it's either 30 minutes or an hour before depending on what airline and airport[0] you change at. So a 2 hour layover "to be safe" would at best give you a grand total of 15 minutes to get all the way back to departures, recheck your bags, go through security, the immigration checkpoint, get to your new gate, etc.

If there's any delay, you miss your next flight, and the airline will not rebook you because your layover's a self-connection, not an actually ticketed thing. So your Guam trip just became a Japan trip.

3 hours would actually have some safety margin in it for short delays. Personally I don't get how people manage really short connections, and I hear plenty of people getting screwed over because of them.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how this works with immigration. The visitor form for Japan asks you about your hotel you plan to stay at - which you won't have since you aren't intending this to become a Japan trip. I have no clue if the immigration officer actually checks that field or if it's purely just for keeping records on tourists.

[0] I heard an hour at LAX. This is the same airport that universally refuses to store luggage overnight - a fact that even people in the airport industry don't seem to understand - so perhaps this is just a rule specific to that tire fire of an airport.


A backpack and a production crew :)


You don’t need to go through immigration at Narita if you are just transferring planes at the airport.


You don't get a transfer if you've bought two separate flights. You have to pick up your luggage and put it on the next flight.


If the airlines have agreements, you can often get your luggage automatically routed to your next flight. I used to do that between Alaska Airlines and Hainan. Not sure if you can get that done in Tokyo, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were actually possible.


> because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier.

That's not exactly true. It just requires the USA and the other country to have negotiated a Fifth Freedom agreement.

There are lots of foreign-owned airlines flying from the US with layovers and stopovers in other countries. For instance, I recently flew JFK->FRA->SIN on Singapore Airlines. And United even operates their Island Hopper route, Honolulu-Majuro-Kwajalein Atoll-Kosrae-Pohnpei-Truk-Guam, among many others.


I think you misunderstood. They said US->US destination has to be operated by a us carrier. JFK->FRA->SIN doesn’t have a US designation and United is a US carrier.


Nevertheless, notice the other example I gave is a United flight originating in Honolulu, Hawaii, transiting Micronesia, and ending in Guam.

It’s the same rule.


That is an American airline flight that starts and ends in the US, therefore complying with the rule.


The rule is simply that foreign-owned airlines can’t fly point-to-point routes between US destinations.

I’m in Chicago, and I can book a Korean Air, non-codeshare ORD-ICN-GUM right now. You can find it on Kayak.


Kayak may offer it, but if you try to book that on the Korean Air website you get:

"This is based on the regulations of the U.S. Department of Transportation and you cannot make a reservation for an itinerary from the mainland U.S. to Guam (GUM) via a third country"

The rule is not that foreign-owned airlines can't fly point-to-point routes between US destinations - Air Canada can't sell SFO→JFK via Toronto, for instance. You may somehow be able to cause something to be ticketed, but that doesn't mean that you'd be able to check in.


It's not a componentized ticket from the airline, but singular tickets that Kayak has joined together. Or, it's simply ignoring the regulation, and will be denied by the airline once you attempt to book it.

As the other poster mentioned, try grabbing a componetized ticket from the airline and they will not book it.


There used to be direct flights on Continental before they were acquired/merged by United


Sounds similar to the article's mention of the Jones Act and the issues it causes.


Dude. Just buy two separate round trip tickets.


And pray neither is delayed, causing you to miss the next leg.


Just space them out out or even take a couple days to visit Japan. Some airports even have programs where they'll take you on a field trip during your layover


These suggestions are cognitive load on the person making the trip. Most people break out in sweats thinking about organizing a trip to begin with, booking something with any complexity or risk is unbearable to them. My parents are both like this.


I had a partner like that. Would freak out if I started driving without our destination already in the GPS.

I think at least half of travel should be an adventure. Adventures are uncomfortable - but they make the best stories. Nobody has ever said, "Man, remember that time we went on that perfectly planned trip where nothing out of the ordinary happened? How exciting!"


Sure I remember the adventure in Denver that one time, but we barely made it to the funeral the trip was about, and we missed a lot of time with family.

If you just want to travel randomly, then no plan is fine. However we laid out plans can ensure you get to the must sees that are farther from home. Also many close to home things have wierd hours They are open so if you don't plan you won't see them that trip.


When you have a kid and a stressful job and adventures shooting out your ears in day to day life, sometimes the idea of going to Guam and swimming in the beautiful waters and relaxing is what you want out of travel. Adventures don’t have to be exotic, I live adventures daily, and I spend a lot of my life uncomfortable. Many people do. The idea of the adhoc adventure trip i think resonated a lot more with me when I was single or newly married. Now, I love a trip to Bora Bora - my wife is very organized and loves travel planning, and we have perfectly executed trips where the excitement is snorkeling with sharks and mantarays rather than spending 48 hours laying on the floor in a foreign airport with a 9 year old.


Heck, I enjoy a good adventure. But I want the adventure at my destination. There is nothing relaxing or exotic about missing connections and spending the night on a dirty concrete floor.


It's not impossible to do. It just sounds silly that the best way to take a 5 day trip in Guam is to take a 2 day trip in Japan and a 3 day trip in Guam.


I wonder if there's a big list of places that take unintuitively long to get to? Friend of mine flew from California to South America a few years ago by way of Paris (which I think is a requirement for French Guiana?)


Berkshire's history pre-Warren isn't that noteworthy:

Berkshire is known to be one of Warren Buffett's worst investments. The Berkshire textile company agreed to sell to Warren, but broke its word and raised its asking price at the 11th hour, which pissed Warren off, so he paid more than he should have to get control of the company to get back at them, even knowing that textiles were a declining industry given offshoring. Warren eventually had to shut everything down and lost a bunch of money. Warren calls it one of his biggest investment mistakes and kept the Berkshire name for his overall investment vehicle to remind himself about that blunder, so it's a little silly to think of the modern Berkshire as a continuation of the original Berkshire.

More: https://www.cnbc.com/2010/10/18/cnbc-transcript-warren-buffe...

Even more in the book "The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life".


So was Berkshire invested in insurance before Buffet acquired them? Maybe he saw that the insurance side was worth more than the textiles would be. Acquire the company just for the insurance side, and wound down the textile side. Never letting anyone know his true intention was to go into insurance.


Isn't Facebook API access what led directly to Cambridge Analytica?


Unlimited API access maybe


It's possible the sketchiness is caused by a restaurant's competitors (writing negative reviews, falsely flagging positive reviews, spamming) rather than Yelp proper.


That adds a bit more complexity to the problem, but it still remains that Yelp is running a platform that to some extent relies on the ability to abuse it.


There is an enormous gulf between a platform with abusive users and a platform where the operator uses it to engage in extortion.


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